Black under jaws, from wolf or GSD ???
 

Hello

I have belived that the black under jaws on CsV was hereditary from the GSD...

But now I am not sure anymore ???

I fund this butefull paiting on Timberwolfs, the mother has wite under jaw, but the puppys have black, especialy one.
Dose Carpatian wolfs puppies have black underjaws to ???

The link : http://www.freespiritart.com/images/...art-prints.jpg

Does any body know more on this subject ?

Best regards / Mikael

Yes they do.
Here you can see four of the Carpatian wolfs we handraised:
http://www.twhclub.de/wbb2/thread.ph...tuser=0&page=3
But staying black jaws are GSD-heritage.

Ina

Tanks fore the photos :)

But how can one be so sure that it is from GSD when the wolf also has it ???

Regards / M

Because in wolfs only puppies have it. It gets lighter in the first year like it does in CSW following the standard.

Thanks fore the answer :)

Regards / Mikael

The black muzzle is a sign of puppy in wolves - as far as I know the pups are removed from the pack hierarchy until around half year old, unlike in dogs.
Domestification actually causes preservation of some infant characteristics in adult dogs - like infantile behavior, big eyes, round head, smooth hair - some of them were even further supported by selection in pet breeds. It seems this was also true for black muzzle.

Ina, do you know what is the usual time for the muzzle to get light in carpathian wolves? It seems to me that most of wolfdogs have the light mask fully developed by 3 months of age, and i have seen some cca 2 months old pups with very distinct light masks in photographs...

It was different in our wolfs but in general all 8 got total developed masks later than our wolfdogs. When you look at the last pictures on page 4 of the link they are about 6 month of age.
They are about 3 month on the picture where all three are howling, I woulnd´t buy a wolfdog looking like that in that age, they develop differently in the first year.

But I don´t think dark faces in dogs are due to Infantilisation.

Ina

Well, it might be only due to selection, but why? I mean most of the breeds which are not light in color have either no mask, or dark mask. Exceptions seem to me to be only black-and-tan colors and nordic breeds.

That would work out if mostly the breeds that fulfill the babysheme would have no mask but most working breeds don´t have any eather.
There has an interesting research been done some time ago. Because the flight reaction of the foxes is a big problem in fur-production a scientist selected foxes only on one feature, tameness in the meaning of low flight-reaction. Within very few generations he got very tame foxes, with black and white spots and floppy ears. The theory on the domestication of dogs is that the wolfs with low flight-reaction did have an evolutionary advantage, they got more food on the dumps near human settlings and that the different looks came accidentially with that.

Ina

At what age young wolves have only white mask? How is or was it with your wolves Ina?

I saw a few weeks ago 4 1/2 month young wolve puppies in Wildpark Scharzer Berge near Hamburg with all black mask. So after what I read here it seems as if it is ok..?!

Thanks

Christian

.................................

Ina, do you have pictures from your now over 1 year old wolves, so that we can see that there is no black mask any more? The pics you gave us the link show only young wolves under one year. If I understand it right you say that wolves have till one year black mask.

Is it with every grey wolf so? I thought I saw young wolves with white mask.... For me it is completely new that europaen grey wolves have black mask in the first year.

Christian

Or maby we can just believe her word about it Christian :rock_3

Regards / Mikael

Thank you Mikael but no need to do so, on the 4 pages in my link you can see when the photos have been made, they mostly have been put into the forum shortly after taking them, I think they nicely show the developement of masks. The wolfs have been born midth of April. But I am sure you did understand my third post;-).

And this are about 6-7 week old CSW puppies: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/30945/
these are about 5-6 weeks: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/30796/
this one about 10-12 weeks: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/16257/
I think they show very nicely that Saschia has been right.

Regards Ina

Please forgive me if some of you dont think this is the right thread to ask this question !

I have seen some CSW`s who don`t have a straight muzzle(bending down on the last part just before the nose) and I have never seen it on any GSD or wolf before, so I wonder if anyone know where this comes from ?
...I havent seen all GSD or wolves, so maybe some of you have seen it on one of thise two animals before or is it a mutation caused by inbreeding(like outstanding eyes and curly coat) ?

Greetings Rolf

Hello,
I don´t exactly know what you mean, if it is the kind of mask you quite often see in dark-coloured wolfdogs this is something I have seen in wolfs too. I think it is just a variability in colour.

Regards Ina

I guess he means not the color, but the form ;-) Like this: http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/lt/gallery/pic/43671/

This is an absolutely normal mask of an elder dog.
I thought something like this http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/de/gallery/pic/12307/ this kind isn´t so uncommon in dark coloured dogs. I have seen it in wolfs, I think it´s just a question of genetic variability.

Ina

Hi Ina,

No I don`t mean the mask, but shape of the muzzle :

not straight muzzle
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4...tmuzzlesh1.jpg

straight muzzle
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/939...tmuzzleww2.jpg

Greetings Rolf

Hi Vaiva,

yes like this ...sorry, but i did not see your post before I already made one my self :oops:

Greetings Rolf

Oh now I see:oops:. No I haven´t seen it in wolfs but I must confess I didn´t look for it, I will do next time. Our wolfs don´t have it. I think I can remember some GSD with it.

Ina

Hi Ina,

I train with my CSW`s in club of German shepherds and no one there have never seen it on GSD too, but ofcourse even they havent seen all GSD`s :)
I was just wondering if it was due to inbreeding ? or maybe somebody know if some German shepherds have it for sure ?
because I can not imagne that it comes from wolf....

Greetings Rolf

I think I found some:
here Platz 4: http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/index.php?id=914

http://www.deutscherschaeferhund.net...anox/yanox.jpg

http://www.deutscherschaeferhund.net...ndi/ghandi.jpg

Hi Ina,

Thanks for the links :)
So I guess that I comes from GSD ...untill I see photos of wolves with the same muzzle :lol:

Just to be sure, curly coat and outstanding eyes is due to inbreeding right ? ...or have you seen any wolves or GSD (without inbreeding in their lines) who have any of this ? :)

Greetings Rolf

no definetly not, but with outstandig eyes I am not so sure because the only dog I know is not very inbred. Not everything new or unusual must be an inbreeding effect.

Greetings Ina

Seems that this wolf have a little bit of cezar nose.

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/7/...76-2096316.jpg

And this more than the first.

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/7/...01-8285500.jpg

Of course, much less than the GSD,but I think if start inbreeding and line breeding in wolves like happen in dogs, few time cezar nose will appear.
When more old the dog seems that this turn more visible.

Well, that´s interesting though the first one I would see as the normal nose. But the second one seems to be different. Where does this wolf come from?

I have seen several CSW`s with outstanding eyes, but they all somehow have bonitation where this is not mentioned at all and when I think again at least one of them don`t have strong inbreeding ? ...but all three CSW`s I have seen with curly coat do have strong inbreeding !

Greetings Rolf

I take on Wolfdog.org, Uk by monty Sloan

Other one, this from Großwildfreigehege Gangelt
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2007/10...19-7238332.jpg

Wolves have it veery silly, most of then seems not have it.
I had see some fothos of european wolves from the São Paulo zoo, seems they have more cezar nose than these wolves from europe, probably due the high imbreeding, not only cezar nose but some bad formation at body start to appear, like a female wich born with his front paw at the side of the leg.
I think somethings wich we can commonly find at dogs like prognatism lack of tooths and even cezar nose can comes from wolves too, but rarelly we will find wolves with this problem because the natural selection some times and the "not human selection for X or Y carachteristic".

Outstanding eyes are associate with defects on head shape, we can find some dogs with this problems comming from inbreeding but it's not relactioned with the inbreeding itself.

Very interesting photos from nebulosa :shock:

Are thise european wolves ? not to say that wolves can not have this "cesar" nose, but I have read somewhere reliable(unfortunatly I don`t remember where) that some european wolves in the international zoo breeding program back in the `70 accually was not pure breed wolves even that experts was claiming that is was, first 30 years later thise experts confessed that the wolves they delivered to the zoo was not pure breed and therefore many wolves in the zoo`s today is maybe not 100% pure :( ...did anybody else hear or read about this ?

Greetings Rolf