wolfdogs
 

This is a nice story and i would want to know more about the subliminal dominance techniques.

But I think, that it is impossible to compare pure wolves and wolf hybrids with a dog breed like
CW and SAS. I can=B4t talk for Saarloos, but CW=B4s are normal dog breed with up to 30% of wolf
blood, which are simply more receptive to shyness and they need special attention.

I had been this weekend at CW summer camp and i was again surprised, how many wolfdogs
there were shy and problematic. I also noticed, that the most shy dogs were usually those of
owners from other countries than Czech Republic (excepts dogs of Margo and Przemek).

What a luck, that i personally know the same number of wolfdogs, who are normal and
not shy at all, and are trainable and well behaving.

I have been thinking about reasons for this, and still i am not sure. Maybe in other countries
are different rules to treat the dog? I can=B4t believe that the problem would be only in the dogs.
More i believe, it=B4s a problem of not enough socialisation in early age of the wolfdogs, and
not enough of attention and training. With our breed, the basics of it=B4s character are made before
two, maximally three months of it=B4s age. With education and training, you can continue to form
the character of the dog up to one year of age, but after this .. no big changes.

Mirka

wolfdogs
 

Me too.

What could possibly be the explanation of this? Are Czech people more aware of what they want out of their dog and what they get when they buy a wolfdog? A problem with these kind of breeds must be to avoid to let "wrong" people getting these dogs.

Not shy at all? Referring to what is stated above, they are "more receptive to shyness and need special attention", and that must be an unavoidable and very sound heritage of the pure wolf.

What about different habits and tradition for treating "macho" dogs? Here in Sweden lots of the GSD and Rotweiler people treat and train their dogs either not at all or quite dominantly, with very little knowledge of wolves or dogs in general and their needs and behavior.

Very likely. The lack of competence in our dogowners is severe. But that would mean that Czech dogowners would be more aware of the importance of this, and I wonder what would be the explanation of that? What can we do to learn from the Czechs?

And that is a fact for any breed, I would say...that far from the wolf isn't any dog. We would have much less problemdogs altogether with more knowledge and interest of breeders and owners. People looking for a puppy should be more careful of choosing the right breeder than they usually are, probably due to lack of competence with the future dogowner. My oppinion is that the Kennel Clubs and/or authorities unfortunately aren't enough concerned with educating, controlling and following up the breeders nor enlighten dog owners, maybe because they themselves lack in competence?

My oppinion is that it is POSSIBLE to form a dog at any time of age - but it is certainly much easier at early ages, the same goes of course for any mammal, f e humans. I usually don't train dogs over two years of age, because the outcome is more indefinite.

Sanna

wolfdogs - socialization
 

Mirka, let me know to little bit comment your opinion. Its true, that
percentage of shy CsW is higher in other countries outside CZ and SK.
But by us is number of this problematic CsW relatively high as well.

Absolutely agree. CsW have in gens the wolf behaviour, of course. But
read the standard, from wolf have not the shyness. Standard says :
"Lively, very active, capable of endurance, docile with quick reactions.
Fearless and courageous. Suspicious, yet does not attack without cause.
Shows tremendous
loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile
in his uses.".
"Suspicious" is the most important word in this case. Many owners change
the suspiciously by shyness. And its a basicaly fault.

One of this problem is, that in some countries is practically no
possible to take a puppy before his 8th week. Its generaly regulation of
FCI. In CZ our kennel club understand our specify situation and
tolerate, when the new owners take a puppy in 5th week. Why ? Because
the socialisation is by our
dogs most important thing, exactly how Mirka wrote. Other problem is,
how the people keep the CsW. Of course, if is dog whole day locked in
kennel and only 1 time in the day go out with owner to walk, then cant
be waiting good socialisation. CsW have very strongly pack instinct and
about it must the owner always think. Second possible fault is, take a 5
week old puppy from breeder and let him free on the garden with other
dogs. Its a other extrem. Puppy will be good socialisated on dogs, but
not on the human.
And training have a big role in this socialisation and education
process. The puppy would be visiting a dog school very soon as possible.
Not for pure training (8 week puppy, cant be trained in this sense), but
for the "aclimatisation" - means other word for "socialisation". Puppy
is between other strange dogs and other strange people. See, that the
dog must listen own owners, see the activity in the school, hear the
different sounds etc. Come with 2 years CsW first time to training is
little bit late. For some individuals is it no problem, but mostly is
too late for some big successes.

Pavel

wolfdogs - socialisation
 

Agree - but still this is essential for ANY puppy of ANY breed. I practise this with my puppies with success. Not only the "wolfdogs" need this training.

Sanna

wolfdogs
 

I had been this weekend at CW summer camp and i was again surprised, how many wolfdogs there were shy and problematic. I also noticed, that the most shy dogs were usually those of owners from other countries than Czech Republic (excepts dogs of Margo and Przemek).

What could possibly be the explanation of this? Are Czech people more aware of what they want out of their dog and what they get when they buy a wolfdog? A problem with these kind of breeds must be to avoid to let "wrong" people getting these dogs.

As Pavel said in his e-mail, here is also a lot of shy dogs. Well, he had seen more of wolfdogs here than i did. Most of those i see normally are commonly behaving normal dogs. I mean dogs which do not escape to hide when they see a stranger.

I agree that the breeders should take care, that their puppies go to the right hands. This is sometimes hard to consider, who is good and who is bad. But i think the breeder should keep in contact with the new owners and help them and advice them, and this way also control how their puppy is doing. Of course, this depends on the decision of the breeder, they can't be forced to do it. Though, there is such recomendation written by the CW Club here in CR.

What a luck, that i personally know the same number of wolfdogs, who are normal and not shy at all, and are trainable and well behaving.

Not shy at all? Referring to what is stated above, they are "more receptive to shyness and need special attention", and that must be an unavoidable and very sound heritage of the pure wolf.

Yes, those i know well - Apollo Schovanka, Dag z Brdskych hor, Asterix Eden Severu, Jerry Lee z Molu Es, Cherry od Uhoste, Brenna Sedy Chlup, Nancy Seda Eminence, Hoky z Molu Es, Bolton Eden Severu and others, which names i don't remember .. they all are fine, trainable and ok.

Of course this breed is more receptive to be shy (or suspicious, how Pavel calls it). For me, when dog escapes to hide under a cottage, when i go around, such dog is not suspicious but shy - or scared like hell. There is just few decades from the last cross with pure wolf, and this must be seen somewhere. The breed is very young, in comparison with for example Saint Bernard or let's say English bulldog. Btw. at the camp i saw one very shy Leonberger. The owner had also CW, and also very shy dog. I believe the problem can't be in the dogs, but in the owner.

I have been thinking about reasons for this, and still i am not sure. Maybe in other countries are different rules to treat the dog? I can't believe that the problem would be only in the dogs.


What about different habits and tradition for treating "macho" dogs? Here in Sweden lots of the GSD and Rotweiler people treat and train their dogs either not at all or quite dominantly, with very little knowledge of wolves or dogs in general and their needs and behavior.

I think that our CW are far from "macho dogs" and they can't be trained like that. Or explain me what is "macho dog".

More i believe, it's a problem of not enough socialisation in early age of the wolfdogs, and not enough of attention and training.


Very likely. The lack of competence in our dogowners is severe. But that would mean that Czech dogowners would be more aware of the importance of this, and I wonder what would be the explanation of that? What can we do to learn from the Czechs?

I think that every dog needs attention and training. The problem is that when golden retriever has lack of attention and training, it won't be probably that visible and it won't form that much his final character, like it would at CW. If the owners of CW here are more aware or not, this i can't say. But here we make a lot of meetings, events, the summer camp, we meet at different competitions and tests. At all these places the owners meet and they can discuss the problems. We also try to manage to keep somehow in contact with the owners of CW around us, to meet and train together etc.

For example, i live in Plzen, so i know almost all wolfdog owners in Plzen and around (some owners do not want to co-operate), and we all visit the same training place, or we meet at some occasions. With most of them we are good friends and we visit each other often. When there come a new puppy to the area, i am informed about it by Pavel or by the breeder and i contact them and offer help and advices of all of us, i offer the chance to meet and to visit the training place.

With our breed, the basics of it's character are made before two, maximally three months of it's age.

And that is a fact for any breed, I would say...that far from the wolf isn't any dog. We would have much less problemdogs altogether with more knowledge and interest of breeders and owners. People looking for a puppy should be more careful of choosing the right breeder than they usually are, probably due to lack of competence with the future dogowner. My oppinion is that the Kennel Clubs and/or authorities unfortunately aren't enough concerned with educating, controlling and following up the breeders nor enlighten dog owners, maybe because they themselves lack in competence?

I think that every future owner of any kind of dog, should inform himself first about all the pluses and minuses of the choosen breed, about it's needs, about how to train it, so that he can see if he's able to own such dog.

If i want to buy car, i must have driving licence first. If i want to have dog, i must know how to take care of it.

Lots of people buy CW because it looks like wolf, but they have absolutely no idea about what it needs and how to treat it. If they don't get help and advice, they most likely will rise shy and problematic dog, which will end in some rescue center, or at the best will return to it's breeder.


With education and training, you can continue to form the character of the dog up to one year of age, but after this .. no big changes.


My oppinion is that it is POSSIBLE to form a dog at any time of age - but it is certainly much easier at early ages, the same goes of course for any mammal, f e humans. I usually don't train dogs over two years of age, because the outcome is more indefinite.

This i can't agree at all. Maybe it can work with GSD, to start to train it in two years, but never with CW. The wolfdog is the most receptive to training up to his first year of age. So the socialisation and training (according to age of the puppy) must start immediately after getting the puppy. Maybe here is the problem? That some owners wait for the "good time to start" so long, that they miss the best period?

Mirka

wolfdogs - socialisation
 

Sure, but by e.g. GSD you can starting the training in 12 months and its make no problems. Not by CsW. Its valid by all dogs but by CsW 100% more.

Pavel

wolfdogs - socialisation
 

I don't agree - if you wait until 12 months of age you will see a lot of problem GSDs...and you do, don't you?

Sanna

subliminal dominance
 

Parker,
could you please explain what you mean with this technique. It could be
usefull for many of us.
Thanks,
Maria

wolfdogs - socialisation
 

Okay - what I mean by "training" maybe isn=B4t the same for you guys?...I "train" my dogs every day from day 1, or day -30 if you wish because I visit the breeder as often as I can - in the way that I train them socially, with me, with other people, with other dogs, different places, different environments, hiding, playing and so on, but very gently...that for me is one part of true training and very important for the young pup.

Sanna

subliminal dominance
 

I would be glad to try to explain.

When I have time I will try to write a narrative summary about our methods.
Before I do this I have a question for the majority of the egroup. This
question is based on my experience working with my colleagues in Kosice
Slovakia. My understanding from my colleagues who are fluent enough in
spoken English that we understand each other about 90% of the time is that
written English is understood with a higher level of comprehension than
spoken English. Much of the problem with spoken English communication had
to do with we lazy Americans using slang terms. I was able to correct the
problem most of the time by avoiding unfamiliar words and slang. I would
like to know how proper my written English has to be in order to avoid
communicating the wrong information. Any suggestions or guidance would be
very helpful and appreciated..

subliminal dominance
 

I guess as much proper as it can be?

Mirka

subliminal dominance
 

Parker,
your written English is OK for me.
Maria

subliminal dominance
 

Hoi Parker,

No problem with Your written English.
Looking forward to Your training methods "subliminal dominance"
I think it can be a great help for CSV people as well for SWH people.

Greets,

Roger
Belgium.

wolfdogs - socialisation
 

You forgot Poland - the percentage of shy dogs here (from 16 CzWs we have
;D ) is even lower :)

This number is proportional to the number of people which have no idea about
what they are buying. In some countries where the main information about
this breed is missing people are buying a CzW instead of buying a wolf. They
even do not try to their their dogs...

Not only many owners. Speak with the breeders - some of them are telling a
CzW can be shy because it has wolf in it. :(
There is also something other: the better-known breed is Saarloos Wolfhound.
It's older, almost all judges know their breed standard. And they are trying
to judge Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs the same way ... but a Saarloos, as
written in the stardard can be shy, and can run away from a stanger. For a
CzW it a huge fault. A CzW can be only "suspicious".

It's old "good" topic. We are just working on it on one of the polish
mailinglists. The are different points of view. Some of them are telling the
best time is 8th week. Other people will not sale a puppy until it is 10
week old or more. But I see amost all CzW picked up so late are shy and they
need much more work and more patience than other puppies (it is the reason
why the breeders sending us info about their litters want to sell puppy at
the age of 6 weeks).

But we can't forget:
- the breeders...
.... and where the puppies stay whole day before they go to their new
owners. Some of them keep puppies in the kennels and they see their breeder
only while feeding time. Behind it they do not have any contact with other
people or dogs. On the other end we have breeders which keep puppies only at
their home. Sounds good but such puppies are also not good enough socialised
as the puppies from a kennel. Only a puppy which had contact with strange
people, dogs and sound can be later a good dogs and we will not have to work
on fault a breeder made when the puppy was 3, 4 or 5 weeks old...
- the parents of our puppy...
... some dogs come from good breeder, have a good owner but will never be so
good as other dogs. And that's because of the character of their father or
mother. If you see different litters, different lines you can see the
character of the parents (or its parts) mirrors in their puppies. Sometimes
even very good socialisation is not enough...

Greetings,
Margo

Shy wolfdogs (wolfdogs)
 

I don't think so (in this case). This Leonberger is one of the puppies bred
by this person and she is the only one shy dog in this litter. One time
there were 6 small cats born at our home. We spent the whole time playing
with them, they saw our dogs, were playing with our friends a.s.o. Five of
them already have a new home. They are more dogs than cats now. But one is
still with us because she was very different. She was shy her whole live. We
though she can't hear, see or speak because in the first weeks she never
made a "meow". Now I know there is everything OK with her. She is just very,
very shy....

But back to the wolfdogs :) You already listed almost all reasons why the
CzW can be shy. So there is nothing to add.... Now we can only think how to
change this situation. :)

And at least - yesterday we made for the bitch from France you wrote about a
unofficial bonitation. There were tested not only the exterier but we also
made the character tests. And the results are: she is not only beautifull
(has no bigger faults) but after this one week on the sommer camp she will
also be able to pass the official bonitation....

Greetings,
Margo

Shy wolfdogs
 

I heard of cwd litters also all good, but one shy. What do you think should
a breeder do with such a puppy? Should you cull/euthanize such a puppy or
keep it yourself? I don't think it should be sold, because it is bad for
the breed and the new owner will face problems that he cannot help.
What do you think,
thanks
Maria

Shy wolfdogs
 

I dont know, which experience have other breeders or owners, but I must say,
that I never seen and heard about such case. Yes, of course, the puppies just
born with different character, but really shy puppy I never seen. Less
courageous puppies are quite normally. My experience is (not only with my
puppies), then 8 weeks shy puppy is 100% fault of breeder (no socialisation).
And its the reason as well to pick up the puppy from breeder soon as possible.
In 5th week can new owner just correct all eventually faults of socialisation
very easy, but every week later is it more and more complicated.
And the problem with euthanasy - according Czech law (and I mean, that most of
EU countries the same) can be using euthanasy only by puppies, which have some
very seriously defects. Means physicaly defects, not character. All other using
euthanasy is a criminal.

Pavel

Shy wolfdogs
 

Hello what I can tell about shy Saarlooswolfhonden.

Most of the puppy's if a SWH are not shy before the age of 12 weeks,so
you can never say that you can keep the shy one .
My male was very shy the first years of his life,but since he is an
adult(the SWH is later as a TWH)he is very selfconfident.
I don't think it's good for the pup to go to the new owner at the age of
5 weeks.Most of the time it's the only dog in the house,so he will be
socialized to people but not to dogs,the only way to learn in the first
2 months is from other dogs.So he is for the work it can be good,but not
for being a familiedog and walk in the park.
I always told people with young dogs let the dog play with dogs of the
same breed,even if they are 5 or 6 months they are smarter than other
breeds ,so most of the time they win al the playing games and they learn
to win.

Christa

Shy wolfdogs (wolfdogs)
 

Woooo! What you did with the dog? When i was there, i couldn't even
approach the dog to touch it, and it tried several times to bite me. But not really bite, just to let
me know to go away.

Mirka

Shy wolfdogs
 

Christa,

can you tell me, how much costs such a puppy of Saarloos wolfhound? I've no idea and i am not even
sure, if anyone here in CR breeds them.
Thanks,

Mirka

Shy wolfdogs
 

Mirko,
momentaly is no one Saarloos registrated in CZ.

Pavel

Shy wolfdogs
 

Hi,

Christa we basicaly speaking about CsW, because not so many people here have a
experience with Saarloos.

Christa, we speaking about a different things maybe. If the puppy still by breeder,
then is logically with her mother. The mostly problem is, that adult female guarding
own teritory and barking to every stranger people or animals. Basicaly instinct by
puppies is, when mother starting barking, then running out (barking of mother is for
puppies a warning). And if is it too long (over 8th weeks) it can still in dogs
behaviour this instinct very strong. Second thing is, that puppy see the people -
mother barking - its a warning - and running out. Then have in his brain coupled a
people like a dander creature for him. This is, whats basicly problem of
socialisation.
Second one, and its wnat about you speaking, is socialisation to other dogs. Of
course, that puppy must have a contact not only with other dogs, but with other
animals as well, if is it possible, with strange people, strange situations, strange
places etc. But this all experiences must just recognised alone or with owner - not
with adult dogs or in the worst case with his mother.
My dogs come to me in 5 and second in 4 1/2 weeks and they have had never problems
with shyness. My puppies goes always to new owner in 5th week and no one is shy. Its
my experience. So that this is the reason to take a puppy soon as possible. We see
the problems with CsW in countries, where new owner get the puppy soonest in 9th
week. In such countries is percentage of shy dogs much higher.

Pavel

Shy wolfdogs
 

You know, from all these discussions about training or not training them, i am getting interested in buying one
and train it to pass tests, just for the fun of it. ;)

Mirka

Shy wolfdogs
 

===An association pup cost 550 euro,there are not al lot of breeders.

Christa

Shy wolfdogs
 

what is association pup?

Mirka

Shy wolfdogs
 

It's TOP SECRET ;)))
But she would be able to pass the bonitation with P3 (because of her
character)...

Greetings,
Margo

Shy wolfdogs
 

It can be sold, but their owner must know what a dog he is getting (it is
the same problem if the owner buys the most dominant puppy). The new owner
must train with such dog much more than with "normal" puppy. But the results
can be pretty good. Now we have on the summer camp a CzW bitch. She is not
shy. She is very, very shy. But she passed today her 3rd test. It is special
case but all shy dogs, if they are trained to be not so affraid of
strangers, can be great for obedience, agility, flyball and other sports
where there is no contact with other dogs or people (you can teach such dogs
to bite but it has no sence and shy dogs will never be good for protection
work).

Greetings,
Margo

Shy wolfdogs
 

I think now we must clear what is a shy puppy :) We make litter previews at
our kennel club and sometimes we have "normal" litters. Every puppy has a
little bit different character but all have no problems with contact with
strangers. But sometimes we have litters with one or two "autistic" pups
(last time it was bichon friese). Such puppy is not walking away or biting
of course what is normal for older dogs. But there is very hard to contact
with it, imposible to play with it, and it is always less courageous - it is
always looking for a safe place where it can "hide" (kennel, crate, ....)
And
if the new owner has no idea how to train such dog and how to work with
it, after it grows up, it will be shy...

There are some great tests for puppies - if the result for one puppy will be
"better keep your hands off this dog" it will be later exactly a shy
dog.....

Greetings,
Margo

wolfdogs
 

According to Stephen Jay Gould, neotony is described as:
[...] the result of developmental retardation at various stages of human
ancestral and foetal development, as well as at various juvenile stages of
primate development. In other words, the foetal and/or juvenile traits of
our ancestors or own species are retained into later stages of individual
development.

This is an interesting subject and I should very much appreciate your
comments on this theme as well as on how wolves and wolfdogs might be
trained by subliminal dominance .

---
Per Olav

More sublime dominance
 

Hello everyone,

I am new to this list, and ought to give a presentation of myself. Since I
tend to go on a bit (to other people's and my own desperation..), I have put
that in parenthesis' below so at the minimum that part can be skipped!

I am extremely curious about Parker Adam's "sublime dominance" concept and
would like to join in the number of people asking "what is that?" and "How can
one use it actively in the training of low neotony dogs?" (I think I mean low
neotony, not high..). Parker Adams' description of how efficient eg. the
recall is with this method, makes it even more enticing (who wouldn't want a
close to 100 % proof recall?). The "sublime"-part, does that refer to some
kind of implicit dominance/leadership? And if so, in which manner? For
instance, I regard the process of clicker training as one method for
indirectly establishing leadership, another "leadership establishing" maneuver
is taking responsibility for certain situations, eg. not allowing the dog to
check out visitors before you have greeted them and then only when you say it
is OK etc., but that is surely not what is meant here?

(I am Norwegian, don't have a CSV and will probably never have one either, as
I suspect that a CSV would simply be too much for me. At the moment I have a
5,5 year old mix of 75% GSD/25% tervueren and a 3,5 year old basenji, both are
bitches. Previously I have had flat coated and labrador retrievers and done
obedience and rescue dog training.

Due to the basenji, I am extremely interested in the CSV. When we got our
basenji, little did we know that this breed isn't really domesticated, nor
what that actually implied. Little Amy has given us shock after shock, and we
have several times been downright lucky. (You should see what they do to
horses, moose, snow scooters etc.) The basenji is a very old breed (at least
4000 years old). They have never been actively bred by humans, all breeding
has been through natural selection. Since they came to the west, in the 1940s,
they have only been bred for showing and not temperament. Therefore a number
of basic instincts have been retained.

There seems to be a number of similiarities between the CSV and the basenji -
destructivity, hunting, escape experts (basenjis are eminent diggers, jumpers
and "creative" climbers), not outgoing, extremely selfwilled and independent.
In addition to the appearance (one looks like a wolf and the other looks like
something sweet from a Disney movie), there is one gigantic difference though.
The basenji is an extremely nervous dog that tends to respond agressively when
it is frightened. This, happily, does not seem to be the case with the CSV as
far as I can see. Believe me, you do not want fear based "I'll get you before
you get me" as a major trait in your CSVs!

Training a basenji is highly challenging, as is living with it. I have never
found a basenji mailing list that adresses behavioural or training aspects to
any extent. It is a small dog with an appealing appearance, which I suppose
influences what kind of people gets them. Generally they don't seem interested
in such things.

I have spent some happy hours catching up on this mailing list, and see how
many interesting themes you discuss (leaving me with about 100 000 questions,
but they will have to wait). It is thanks to Per Olav that I have found this
list. In case you don't already know - Per Olav is an extremely nice person!
He is also very responsible. A question about CSV came up in a norwegian
discussion group, there were many oohs and aahs, what a beautiful dog, my next
dog shall be a CSV, I know a lot about dogs, how difficult can it be and so
forth. Per Olav took the trouble to answer questions, to direct to relevant
web cites and to warn against any form of romantism concerning the CSV (no GSD
this!). Since then I have stalked and pestered poor Per Olav, so in the not
too distant future I hope to see "the puppy", Cziky, in real life. I really
wonder what Per Olav will call Cziky when Cziky gets older - "the pooch", "the
little doggie"?)

Regards Tonje

Shy wolfdogs (wolfdogs)
 

Hello Mirko,

Just coming home from our holiday from Czech Republique and Slowakia, I
followed the discussion about shy dogs. We also met the shy dog from the
French people and we helped with some translation to them. Nothing happened
with this dog and she was even willing to do everything with her. Also the
character test was OK. The only thibng was talking to her, that she was a
nice dog and that she was doing fine.
Sometimes this works also.

Letty