in france the wolfdog are not working breed is show breed only.

best regard stephjj :wink:

and this is very bad :frown:

hi wolfin and all...y just s want to say: ...yes it s shame but france need time(y wrote that before)give us time for us and yu see the progress ....it s a new race for france and the new comission work about this question ...don 't worry ...frank from france ....

yes i know is very bad but in france is that ,yes we want the csv working but now we dont have the choice.

stephjj :wink:

Sorry, but can you explain me, who or what is preventing you from working with your CSV? Are you trying to convince us, that in France CSW cannot do agility, cannot do obedience, tracking (pistage), coursing, dogtrekking, bikejoring.. anything? Yes, I know you have there problem with CSW doing defence, but that´s about it.

indeed the CLT in France is not authorized to make the corrosive one but as you say it mirkawolf, of another activity are proposed to us such as the agility, tracking, obedience..., my last, it, with the club of education makes agility and that plait to him, and we pass from good moment, it does not have there only corrosive the!!!!!

Martial :wink:

yes we can do all you say but what is official in France obedience ,agility and pi stage that all and someone don't want to do that ,some want defence or endurance.

steph

Yeah, that´s the point of problem. Many French (Belgian, Dutch..) people DO NOT WANT to work with their dogs, not that they CAN NOT. Who wants to work, will find his way, no matter on the country.

Who does not want to work, comes up with a milion of excuses and then goes to dog show and collects useless titles :roll:

hi ...just want to say this future is the same that siberian huskies 20/30 years ago ....now we have 2 sorts of dogs ...for show(more quiet and in a spirit of show) and for work (more speed and atletic body)(same for other race too )...and people do their choice ...musher or not ...y think nobody can impose their volonty and just their ideas to community ....if people don't like work but prefer show ...what is the problem if other people do work more ?????....y live in country where the most important words are freedom....egality ....and fraternity....y think ( pass and present prove that)it s not a good thing believe just ONE ideology.........respect of differents ideas and cultures is the foundment of new civilisation ....in a topic like here y think we can prove it s the solution .........friendly frank from france ....(and hope became europeen but now it s more for economyand not in all spirit'people..;it s shame...)

Dear Frank,
we do not discuss here freedom, brotherhood, equality or ideology. We discuss here about Czechoslovakian wolfdogs. And the fact is, that CSW was always meant as working dog. Not as a show dog. There is plenty of breeds, that got quite screwed up, once the dog show people put their hands on them.

It happened to huskies - yeah, the show husky is nice furr ball, but it would not survive in the sledge. Show husky is a joke to real huskies, cause the real huskies were ment to work. The same thing happened to German shepherds - the show German shepherd can barely walk, his hind legs are over-angulated and the dog does not have anything left from it´s original purpose - healthy, character stable and versatile dog. Is this what you wish for CSW as a breed?

Working dogs should be working. They should not be turned into dolls. I do not care, what kind of "job" or work the CSW will do, but any kind of "job" or work, or sport is better for the dog, than to spend hours laying in cage, waiting for his class to come into ring and then run round 5 minutes in circle in front of a judge. What does it bring to the dog? Nothing at all.

We speak here about what is good for CSW as a breed. Not about what is good for lazy people. And all over the world, everyone is free to use his brain and common sense to figure this out.

Mirka, :fingers1
Regards
Rona

Mirka, :beerchug2

Mirka
:klatsch

Indiana

hi all ...y know that csw are do for work and YUR REFLEXION IS TRUE and y m agree with ....but y just try and want yu explain that little as little yu see 2 differents types in the world and we couldn't change that ...if yu have a solution y m so interrest about this ....sure my father breed 20years ago huskies more for work and result in show are little as little medium ....of course juge prefer an other type ....yu don t think that it will became the same for csw?????????y respect if it s the decision for juge and y respect the work for breeders spesialist for work'csw....we note in france some juge prefer csw more little and other one more big ....it s so subjectiv .......but if yu note the evolution for huskies yu can see huskies class for work(champion winner)and for show(champion beauty)......it s shame but it s the reality ........what we can do ????????boycott show?do yu have THE SOLUTION ?frank.

So we are all going to ruin the breed now because there are breeders out of the countries of origin that don´t care about the qualitiy of their breeding? And we don´t try to improve things because the Huskies and German Shepherds got ruined too (in the last ones not only the show lines by the way)?
It is absolutely no problem to show dogs on Club shows with judges that know the breed or to join the bonitations or summer camps.

And why is this a reason to breed a bitch without official HD-results?

Ina

yes of course but the legislation is not the same in all countries and if we want the same it's the FCI work after meeting with race club ...not? to regulase the situation :work and show /it's a long way and it's for that y try to explain we need TIME and patience ...........friendly frank....

Well I can answer this because we have almost the same situation in Germany. We only need one exhibition result of very good, one special breeding exhibition that´s nothing serious, one x-ray and an eye-test every year. We had and have still the same problems with judges on FCI-shows and of course we have breeders that think they have an excellent dog because it managed to get the German champion titel. We have German champions that wouldn´t pass the bonitation because of their exterieur mistakes. We still have a lot of problems. But things have improved a lot because we have several people that show their dogs in the Clubshows in the countries of origin, we now invite specialised judges to the German Club show, we organise Endurance runs and Bonitations, we ask people not only to x-ray the hips but the ellbows too. Of course we can force nobody to join them though we are working on harder breeding conditions. We have to look differently at some of the results because we are at the beginning (the countries of origin did that too, by the way) but though we had a lot of fights last year and some people left and started their own Club do we get a lot of help from outside because we are trying to improve things. And there are more and more German judges that are improving their judging and that actually see the breed improved a lot.
And there are also people from Luxemburg, France and Belgium that come to Club shows and bonitations. There was just a new Club founded in Belgium to improve things.
To say "the others aren´t doing it" is the wrong way in my eyes, you can start doing things, it needs some effort but isn´t impossible and you will find a lot of people helping you if you look at the situation globaly not nationally. I don´t agree with everything I see in the countries of origin but I can not know how too make things better if I do not know how things are done at all.

Ina

yes ina y m agree ...the solution it will be a big europeen meeting and present to fci this way of reglementation ....but it s not before a lot of years .....y hope everybody and breeders work in this way :not "dissociation"beetween work/show ....but............yes but ...friendly frank.

No, you didn´t understand me. Yo don´t need a big international meeting und it is useless to expect the FCI to do the regulation. You have to start yourself with your own dogs and find other breeders and owners to join you even if it may be unpopular with the others. You have to do represantations of the breed in your country where you definetly say: look this is a working breed, it is supposed to have this charakter, it is supposed to look like this, his body confirmation should be like this. Everything else is a mistake and wrong and if some breeder tells you something different he is a lyer and you shouldn´t buy a dog there.

But this means too that you have to go to bonitations and endurance runs and Club shows and camps and have to travel thousands of kilometers to find a proper mating partner and very important a different mating partner to the one before. And not at least that you make a good health control of your dog even more than your breeding association is asking for.

Ina

yes .........but it s not so easy ........frank

It is easy.


BUT: It takes a lot of time, money and effort of each single breeder, and owner to train their dogs, to visit bonitations and exams. But I think it is worth it.

I met so many people from different countries the last 5 years and many of them tried hard to exchange information and giving support to new owner. They love this breed and try to bring it forward by intelligent choices in mating and by finding the best people for their puppies.

I think this is a way to go. Exchanging information, giving support and most of all, to explain why.

Why they are not using a dog without x-rays for breeding...
Why they are not using a dog without bonitation for breeding...
Why are they not using a dog without training for breeding...

and furthermore

Are there any lines with sick dog?
Are there any dogs which are old and healthy?

You might want to add many more questions which are important for yourelf. These above are important to me.

Have a good day and best regards to all of you we have met during the last years :)

Kerstin

in FCI system is written that CSW is working breed so what discusions can be working breed or not? Maybe france people want to change standart? i think that there are no problems to begin to do something with them, unless it is easier dont do anything and complane that everything is bad and make puppies like in factory. In lithuania we have only 8 dogs but we are working on establish the club, dogs will be and are breed with hips and elbows examinations and bonitacion and we work with dogs, because they are working breed. So, i think that if you want there are no fences, but if you talking nonsenses and trying to prove something, find out fences thats mean that you dont interesting in dogs welfare.

Daiva you are right, but need to have a look of different conditions for breeding in the different countries.

If there is no working proof needed in France, but an exibitions in order to get the permission to breed than we cannot help it- what this breeder does, is legal.

It is the same in Germany, you do need a working proof ;)

If this is good or bad, that´s a different story.

Hi!
I think , the question is, in the Standard is write "Sheepdogs with Working Trial", if not deceif-me this working trial can be IPO too as can be Schutzhund and one endurance test, right?!
If the dog not have at least one of these tests cannot officialise the title of international champion, right?!
In France the only thing that is forbiden is the defence test, so, why not make the obedience and smell tests only?!
IPO not have defence, is only obedience, why not do it?! :wink:

Sorry

Sorry but YES it is more easy then you think!:D

When your country don't accept CsW as a working breed, you also can DO things with your Csw and you can convince other people (puppy buyers for example) that for the health of your/their dogs and the breed it is necessary to work with them :D

In my country (Holland) CsW are alowed to follow obedience courses, but to find other kind of training with a CsW it becomes difficult..., but it is possible when you are a bit ceative ! :mrgreen:

So I do a lot of things with my CsW with different traininggroups :D
And no, for me it is also not always possible to pass exams with my CsW :( But for me it is more important to work with a working breed like a CsW then get the official diploms :mrgreen:

And that is why I am always telling my puppy's buyers: it does not matter what you do, but when you want a healthy and satisfied CsW's , DO something with them!

And for for example: because of my creative way of thinking and looking for activity's with my CsW, a week ago I was doing a rescue avalanche training in Austria in a group of a total different breed :D
And Chezka (Berta z vlei Chaloupky)and I did enjoy this new challenge (without diplomas) :ylsuper
Mijke

http://www.de-ursidae-stee.com/Lawin...2NP1030495.JPG

http://www.de-ursidae-stee.com/Lawin...3NP1030574.JPG

ok y m understand ...y work with them like bicycle .... and y try; when ossa is ok;kart to training huskies without snow .....but for pistage and other discipline we don t have near .........and of course y have family life too ....and my professional life.........but y can try ....thanks for yur information mijke...friendly frank

Mijke is absolutely right. CSV love work, that's how they were 'made' - if one deprives them of the possibility to work, (whatever is understood under this term), they feel useless and suffer. I know an archeologist who takes his CVS with him whenever he works outdoors. My Tina taught herself how to act a 'geologist's dog' just by accompaning my husband in his reserach field trips... She also fetches slippers, newspapers, carries sticks, etc. She ran by the bike until she was nearly 13, etc. Even now we have to organise her "duties":D , otherwise she gets bored & frustrated and nibbles the fur on her legs :(

But remember Frank, that no dog should practise intense running (endurance runs) before the joints (hips and elbows) are checked against HD and ED. If it turns out that she has C or more, running might ruin her health. But such dog can still "work" - can do tracing, obedience etc. Not necessarily to pass exams but just for fun, out of genuine need and to build trust between him and the owner.

And if the owner says he/she has no time for such activities? - well, what was the sense of buying such dog, in the first place? He should have bought a yorksire terrier, keep it in his pocket and have plenty of time :mrgreen:

dear Frank, BUT CSW is NOT huskies. ok this sport is very nice, but, wolfdog is specialization-tracking, not mushering.
if You will working with wolfdog-like sport, funy you can make mushing, but normal exam is Obedience, or trecking exams for wolfdogs.

i have questions-in France is....exams. can me say what exam have you in France?

in Lithuania we have IPO and BH, and first step with mondioring and KNVP, and mushing with husky and malamuts, of next year (with me organization) we have Obedience.

but this is NOT problem with me dogs make moore examins, not only in Lithuania, a have exams in Czech republic, Poland.

Hi,
if I can also say me mine I see this race from job to 100%, certain not all the subjects are suited to the job and it are here that the breeders have to work, trying to get dogs is morphologically excellent is that they succeed in working with his/her own masters.

My dog has gotten the brevet IPO1 to 2 years, trained by my wife which had never worked with any subject.

The problem according to me of the race is that people see her how a particular race frees, he thinks about having a wolf in the house or in garden, but this gentlemen it is a dog, it has particular dowries but a dog stays always.

In Italy there are subject that the flock selection have passed, civil protection IPO, but these results are gotten with sacrifice of the owner that has to approach himself in field to train himself 2 or 3 days to week but gentlemen in the other races is the same thing doesn't think that with a German shepherd he goes in field 2 times a month!!!!!!

Constancy!!!

I know that in some countries the job with the dog is prevented by laws, but this is a job race and to get the International Champion needs to have a job brevet and 2 CACIBs, as FCI says.

Regards Alessio Tabacco

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9...2807nx0.th.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2...iatojb4.th.jpg

Some Photo of SKY at working!!!

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2...3262hk2.th.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5...e032zn0.th.jpg

And some Photo at Show Dog!!!

Saluti Alessio Tabacco

hi wolfin ...here in france we can do agility or dogcross ...not more ....and we dont have any exam with csw ...it' not in accreditation of the race club ....sorry ...friendly frank.

Hi Frank,

our CSV visited obedience courses in France. They are not allowed to do protoction work- this is right, but they can do
all the rest. And if you work with your dog and know the rules for the exam you can do it in any other country, for example Czech Republic, Germany, Slowakia, Poland, etc. This is how we did it ;)

If you own a dog, no matter what breed, you have to work with them somehow. If you do not have the time, money or energy it is better not to have a dog.


Regards,
Kerstin

Frank, sorry, but You have in FR, the best training people from Obedience, you have agility, have French ring, have mondioring, and IPO.
i know what i say. i see dogs competicions list, and french dogs have first place in all system competicion.

If You not WILL moore working with wolfdog, make atleast only Obedience.

Hello, I am French, and in France the clt can practise all the sports canine, the agility, the canicross, tracking, obedience, research in décombre, rescue with water, the herds (even if some farmers are reticent ) ....... and more, has the choice nevertheless there…
Greetings!

yes activities without ring (in france)are ok but all people don t do work with their csw and y don t ask to them don t take this race because yu don t work with them!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ....y repeat for the last time people(french or all of the world)do what they want for their dogs ...show or work ....or both or just walk in nature ...the essential is csw are happy and in good house ...this is my point of yu and y think it s my last intervention here because yu re too much directiv for me and yu have always the same idea and don' t try to understand different point of yu ....byebye...yy can be happy because y don t think y come back ....friendly frank....

sorry y do a mistake on my last word /"yy" it s for: YOU and Y can be happy because ........ok byebye again

Frank, good and intelegent dog MAS have good obedience.
if people not will working with IPO, profesional tracking, can make only Obedinece 1 exam.
and actually there will be enought "Obedience 0", that is better then nothing in training

:)

csw working ????? yeeeees he like
 

hello

i'm agrre with you wolfin

CSW IS a working's dog he like if we give him the possibility of it

in fact in france more possibility obedience , tracking , agility rescue etc.....with notebook of work

for tex, the dog which I had before i had csau OB 0 we had a lot of working and test tracking.
actually with my new CSW furcas we working education ,at this moment and tracking and in futur obediance .

http://www.zperonowki.com/pics/galle...stage/th_2.JPG

http://www.zperonowki.com/pics/galle...stage/th_4.JPG


in fact since 1 or 2 years the mentality have change

before the CSW have considerate as a wolf

"why working with a wolf "???

actually there is 5 CSW so have notebook of work, as soon 6 ;)

since some time more and more people ( onwer of CSW ) think
"we could working with my dog "and the character is in line as this think.

if we realy want to working we take the time and all possilility to do it the CSW can and like working he ask at working ;)

the only unauthorized , RCI, mondioring, because too less as wolfdog in france have good character for working in biten. it changing slowlybut it will changing in futur and the offical authority ,prohibits it because " it's a new breed and it's a wolf- dog that's why.

the CSW must "working" it's a little necesity
i will come on summer camps this year with furcas we will see perhaps

HI
Even living in France you can make your Wolfdog a Working Dog ;)
As it was said you can train Obedience, Rescue and many other things. It will not give you an official working dog but gives you a wiser dog and a pleasure of working with a friend :)

There are two official ways of having working CSV
1. as Sky said - making IPO (not allowed in France)
2. making SVP exams (40 and more km running) - as I do with Amber
You can pass the exam in Slovacia, if you need a paper 8)

Last weekend we got an official paper - my Amber is a Working Dog without defence


So try :D it brings you joy 8)
http://www.jantarowa.wataha.wolfdog....n2007%2023.jpg

Hey all,


I have tryed to follow this post...

I am from France, and i want to give you some precision.

The most people in France, whom are working dog lovers, will respect standard and give CWs working activity, in the respect of law or in french breeding club decision.

Here in France, some breeders will never train CWs in defense...
But it doesn't concern all breeders !!!

The most of breeders here are convinced that we must increase socialization and training (obedience) for CWs living in France, in order to establish stable caracter.
French breeding commitee, recently officially validated, thought about since the first meetings.

French Breeding commitee would plan several actions :
- preparing an information document support to new CWs owner to explain them CWs caracteristic and a social needs,
- actions to make possible a better selection mixing good caracter and excellent morphology,
- actions to increase breeder information exchange to help them in their selection

But ALL this actions will reach their objectives rapidly with the support of breeders and expert in the native country of the CWs.

The other problem is the french law about "dangerous animals" which concerns in fact dog used as guard dog (like Rottweiler, Tosa, Pittbull).

In future, this law will be harder and harder...

So, because CWs is a recent breed in France, most a person in SCC and Breeding Club think that we must be very prudent before accepting CWs in defense activity.

Imagine can accident here in France with CWs trained as deffese dog. People will only see that accident as a "dog like wolf" accident, and media (press, television) will take the opportunity af making good audience...

For conclusion, the CWs risk to be classed as "dangerous like dog"... You imagine the disaster for the breed !

I have Rottweiler and i work in obedience and defense too.

I am sad of this situation for CWs, but i understand this reserved attitud for Cws as defense dog.
And for now, it's a intelligent decision !

For conclusion, please find some photos about my dog... Most of people thought at the beginning that it just be a show dog with wolf like behaviour...

They are wrong... as me, because, with a few working period (few days), not with me (i am not very good in this area...), we discovered a dog with a real working potential !

I want to inform that the INSTRUCTOR and CONDUCTOR of my dog, Ar'wan de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale, is M. Lionel MARTINEZ, well known french instructor for rottweilers.

M. Lionel MARTINEZ is part of the Mollynière de Lo'Scale TEAM BREEDING, and all the working stage was did in the breeding facility near Paris....

So this breed station, as others in France, are working with their CWs.

But for now, see photos above obedience and tracking !

http://ericplante.free.fr/Ochrana/images/DSCN0003c.JPG

http://ericplante.free.fr/Ochrana/images/DSCN0019b.JPG

http://ericplante.free.fr/Ochrana/images/PIST%2033.JPG

http://ericplante.free.fr/Ochrana/images/PIST%208.JPG

I really not understand this...
Is ever more easy one dog without defence training attack one human as accident than one dog treined.
Defence dogs have do be very well sociabilised, contrary case they cannot do this work, will never pass one working test, one not well treined dog not bite correct and already show problems in this test, one not very well sociabilized will show a lot of problems in this training, one very well trained dog, with waek nerves already isn't able to pass these tests!!
Another thing, the defence training not finish when the training class end, prepare a ring dog need a lot of time and knowledge by the owner too.
IF happen an accidend with one defence treined dog, is very more easy stop the attack than with one who isn't trained.
Owners who training the defence with dogs are more responsible than owners who have only a "pet" ( normally, without generalisations, ok), know better the own dog as have one better connection with this dog.

Thanks Sherdor, Ness and Paida99 for your most informative explanations. They clear up some aspects of the CSVs situation and standing in France, so dimmed by Frank's posts. :mrgreen: It's good that you don't wait and don't 'need more time' do help your wolfdogs develop their full potential as working dogs :fingers1 :fingers1 :fingers1

Dogs breed very fast - by the time one learns how to breed CSVs on one’s own mistakes he might have “produced” hundreds of dogs with bad HD, wrong proportions, poor character, etc. Ina is absolutely right – every responsible breeder should start doing his/her best here and now, by gathering information, seeking advice, studying pedigrees, health results etc. BEFORE he/she starts breeding. I'm not a breeder myself, but I appreciate professionalism :mrgreen:

I think I understand you doubts concerning defence training. Paula, I see your point, but from what I've learnt, CSVs should be trained slightly differently than other breeds (there was a topic about training methods some time ago on this forum). They require experienced trainers who know the specificity of the breed and do not just blindly imitate methods used for other dogs. Thus the help of Czech and Slovak specialists to offer trainer trainings would probably be priceless, but I guess this happens at CSV summer camps? It's probably wiser not to allow defence before a critical number of good CSV defence trainers is available than risk a sight of a CSV jumping to somebody's throat instead of a decoy's arm (as wolves do :twisted:) :mrgreen:

Thank you a lot RONA, i am glad to see you understand all i tryed to explain.

Nebulosa, i agree with you, and i know all you say. I just want to give you some precision, because i think some informations are missing you.

I repeat i have Rottweilers (5) and i have trained some of them in defense. My male alpha, our first one Rottweiler (it's 6 years old now) needed to be under control during 6 months before biting only one time ! (excitation phase without biting)

For the most people in France, Rottweiler are the worse dog, dangerous, etc...

What i wanted to tell you is, because of the context, of media power, we need to be very careful in France with CWs.

In the case of a CWs, trained as defense dog, would bite somebody, all the breed would have problem at the end...

Of course a good instructor will validate each step before following the defense training program...

But everybody know that some people, named themselves "instructor", are VERY BAD in fact and make mistake during training...

It's why support from instructor in native CWs countries is a very important point.

The real problem is that popular press and people wouldn't make the difference...
They only see in the NEWs :" A wolf like dog, traineg as defense dog, bite somebody"... and i already know the impact of these kind of news for the breed....

For now, we hope that more and more new owner of CWs will go to obedience club, or agility....anything to make the CWs working...

...because a working dog is UNDERCONTROL compared to no-education dog !

Now I really understand the principall problem of the defence training in France ( and not only)

that is one thing that is better nor comment about in public, who knows that one sensationalist journalist will not read it and make one news " CzW - The neck cutter breed" :lol: :twisted:
Who doubt is crazy, already have someone who say " Wolfdogs-the kid killers" :mrgreen: