Testicles
 

Testicle shortages in CsV.

How often appear?
is there any lines where appears more often?

How many dogs reported with only one testicle?
Any dogs totally without testicles?

Just wondering.

-Suski

Hello,
as far as I know it doesn´t occur very often, I only know of one case and I know quite a lot of dogs now. Dogs have to have two normal testicles on shows and bonitation so dogs with this problem shouldn´t breed under FCI rules. Do you know of any dogs with this problem?
It´s quite rare in other breeds too.

Regards Ina

Yes, only one. We have here in Finland one import male from CZ and other testicle is missing.

i think it's not rare example with GSD;s, but with wolfdogs i haven't heard about it much. We have also one SWH in Finland, with missing testicle. It's "Finnbreed" not import. But still, rare in this kind of breeds i guess.

Suski

Kryptorchism mostly is inheritable, if you don´t use this dogs for breeding and keep an eye on increased cases in lines you normaly don´t get more cases in a breed. That´s one reason why it is so important that judges controll this mistake on dog shows.
I never had a German Shephard with this problem in my veterinary practice in 13 years now and you see quite a lot of them in Germany. One case now and then in a breed is absolutely normal.

Regards Ina

Hi, Ina,

For your information (and for everyone knowledge...), the male from the second CsV litter I have produced, Windswept Hillock's Scorpio (Falco zo Sennej x Jola z Krotkovského dvora) is a kryptorchid boy... I give it to friends for free, they don't plan to bred any dog at all, but use him in a small team of running dogs.

Philippe

Thank you Philippe,

if all breeders would be as responsible as you there wouldn´t be any genetic problems.

Regards Ina

One testicle missing
 

Our boy sired a litter of 9 pups nearly 2 years ago. There were only 2 males, both only had 1 testicle. Our vet. said it was definitely a genetic fault on the dam's side, not the sire's, and that the dam should not be bred from again, which is a shame because they had such beautiful pups, but we will try again with another bitch.

Hello,

I wondering why it was the fault of the dam. It is an genetic problem and it can also come from the male.

Greetings,

Letty

No - our vet was adamant that the fault lay with the dam not the sire, because his testicles both descended together at the correct time apparently. Out of the 9 pups, there were only 2 males and both only had 1 testicle descend.

The only way to find out for sure of course would be to breed from our boy again and see what happens. Rather irresponsible of us of course as were he to sire males with only one testicle, then we would definitely neuter him, but this would be the only way to find out for sure. The vet says that the very small risk that our dog is to blame is far outweighed by the fact that he is such a gorgeous dog that his genes should be shared - I hope she is right, because I am totally against breeding from animals with any genetic faults, and I would feel a hypocrite if anything went wrong.

Hello again,


I still wondering that your vet can say such a thing. Even a male with one testicle can bring puppy's, even with 2 testicles.

so tray a litter again with another male and I think, I will be sure that there are males in it with 2 testicles.

If there are males with one or non testicles, than you can be sure that the fault is by your dam.

I hope for your everything will be allright with the next litter,

Good luck,

Letty

I fully agree with Letty - sure missing tescticles have genetic reasons but it is not posible to say who is responsible for it. There are many reasons so the only way the breeders found out is not to use males with missing tescticles for breeding. And keep eye on lines where it appears more often than by other dogs...
Of course if there is a male (or female) which gives more kryptorchid puppies than the average rate (and there are kryptorchid dogs in every litter) than you can say he/she is carring "defect genes". But there rest is juest the question of probability...

And some Finnish breeders/vets said that it has to come on both side.
(one testicle or missing testicles) I don't know. Never research this problem, even never had in any of my own/breed dogs. (yet)

Just from the one theme to another;
Is here anybody knowing anything about disease CA?
(Cerebellar Ataxia) It appears in airedales,spinonis,lagottos. Example.

-Suski

Hmm - this testicle thing is very interesting. If I were to be 100% certain, I would not and should not breed from our boy again. But our vet was so adamant that the fault did not lie with him, I am tempted to use him again. Then if any more males were born with 1 testicle (and presumably any females would also be carrying the "one testicle gene") then I would definitely not allow him to cover another bitch again.

Even though a dog with one testicle is undoubtedly still fertile and capable of siring offspring, I believe it is totally wrong to breed from any dog or bitch with a known genetic fault. After all, this is why there are thousands of known genetic diseases endemic in "pedigrees" - breeders continuously carrying on breeding from their animals just because they look the part at dog shows and keep winning the prizes. I mustn't go down that route, else you'll never shut me up, but what attracted me to wuffs was not just their gorgeous looks, but their health as "mongrels".

A bit of a Catch 22 situation I'm in. I'll need to have another discussion with the vet before using our boy as a stud again.

Bugle :

I recommended you to speak with several vets. Not just one.

-Suski

hello,

I agree with Suski, ask several vets, what their opinions are and take your conclusion.

I think that is the best way you can do.

And by the way, about 15 years ago, I knew a German Shepherd male with one testicle. He lives with a German Shepherd female together and she came in her heat. He mated her and there were 12 puppy's born. If the puppy- males had the 2 testicles, I don't know about that, because I have never seen them.
We joked to the owner of the male, be happy he had one testicle and not 2 then you had 24 puppy's!!!! (we had contact by phone)


Letty

And also vets have different conclusions and opinions about this :mrgreen:

A vet I know told me it was coming form one side: the male. :(

And later on he had in his kennel a male with missing both testicles. And by accident this dog had mated (because he did not expect ist was possible :mrgreen: )

And surprise, surprise, there was a litter of 5 and all the 3 males were normal :cheesy: :cheesy:

And also all the offspring of this litter and their offspring had two testicles :D

And now the same vet is telling everyone the possibility comes from tow sides and a bit more from the female :cheesy:

greetings
Mijke

At the fees that vets in the UK charge, I'll just stick to speaking to my own vet I think!! :lol: :lol:

I have studied a little in genetics and to my understanding both parents would have to be carriers of the fault and that if you matched them with a partner that did not carry the gene that the pups would be fine. However the pups would also be at risk if bred with a dog that carried the same gene. You have to think every dog could carry the gene without it showing as the animal only inherited it from one parent. An animal that has the fault visable has inherited it from both parents but can only pass on its half of the genes so the puppy has only this half. Does that make sense, its easier to draw a diagram.

testicles
 

Hi there Bugle, Cryptorchidism (C) is something I've been involved in and I've just spent three months researching. I have loads of bumpf on it that I can e-mail to you if you like. From all the research documents I've got it would seem your vet has definately got it wrong. There is no way of knowing whether it is your dog or your bitch who carries the gene as there is no genetic test available to distinguish who carries. There a few few ways of narrowing it down though, i.e. researching lines your dogs come from and checking if any C's have been produced throughout. The only other way is to breed test both with other mates clear of the C gene (i.e. no history of it occurring) by checking father, grandfathers and brothers to see if any are affected. Some of the research can be a little mindblowing as some says that both parents must carry in order for a C or C's to be produced, others say that both genes can be carried by one parent, but in either case most research states that at least 25% of males born would be affected and that a percentage of females will be carriers. Most research shows that to be a C or a carrier of C, there must be some evidence of it recurring in either of the dogs lines. But note, iIt may skip a generation and not all dogs are affected. In one study case there were 3 males two entire (both testicles present) dogs and one C, their, father and grandfather were C. One entire brother produced, all C male pups, yet the other entire brother produced entire males?? but females carriers?. Yet in another breed with no record of the condition at all, a C appeared this was described as a congenital defect. As I've said the research is extensive but I'm happy to forward it to you.

As long as you can research all dogs related to your dam, sire to ensure it's not a reccurring problem, you should try using your bitch again, but try her and the dog with other mates (obviously ones clear of the condition). She shouldn't be damned for this as it's not proven until several matings have been tried.

Hope this helps

Well having read this here is my informed opinion on the issue... informed because I’ve studied biochemistry and genetics for well over ten years, so even though I might not be a vet, I do have some idea about things…

My opinion odds are Cryptorchidism is due in a good measure (I would say 90% of cases) to environmental factors, having little to do with either parent. For one thing it is a process so complex that things are bound to mess up more because of mechanical (ie the environment) or circumstantial (a little infection in the wrong place at the wrong time… so small it would go undetected, or perhaps a nasty insect bite) reasons, rather than genetic ones. There is actually some evidence for this… because a quick little search on the topic has revealed that in humans (who of course are not dogs)

The incidence in humans is: 1/3 premature male births, 1/30 live term male births, 0.8% after age 1.

Interesting because it shows that it is an environmental factor (prematureness) rather than a genetic one which results in an increased risk for cryptorchidism.

Epidemiology: all humans affected, no geographic propensity.
This too is interesting because it shows that genetics is NOT a major factor. This affects all humans uniformly, regardless of race, nationality or gender… er… ok maybe gender does matter in this case ;-)

In dogs it would be tempting to ask a vet if some races are more prone to cryptorchidism than others. If it is not the case then one might assume that no genetic factor is involved (with the genetic diversity in the different dog races, such a thing would not have been homogenously distributed) Unfortunately even if there is no “direct” genetic effect, different dog races would be affected differently by cryptorchidism because things like for instance pelvic morphology would be a determining factor (and this morphology is in fact partially genetically determined)

Right ok so this would be anathema to just about most people (Because dog breeders operate on the basis that cryptorchidism is genetically determined and thus do not breed males who do not have both testicles… but unfortunately evidence (at a glance, I did not do an in depth study so I’m open to suggestions) tends to mostly environmental factors.

Sorry,
as a vet I can tell you that in most cases you can´t directly compare human genetics of the genetic defects with canine genetics, the genetic background of kryptorchism in dogs is varified. The newest theories are that the reason is a hormonal caused dysfunction of the descendus testis, that is caused by a factorcomplex. Genetic-statistic research (Wiesener, Willer) has prooved that one of the most important factors is genetic. In former times they thought it was a autosomal-recessive way, nowadays it is thought to be polygenic.
Carriers of that disease should not be used for breeding (kryptorchids themselves and females or males with an above-avarage high amount in their offspring).
Breeds with high incidence are: Minituare and Toy Poodles, German Shepherd, Welsh-Corgi, Smooth-haired Foxterriers, Greyhound, Whippet, Pomeranian, Maltese, Boxer.

In breeds where kryptorchids have been used for breeding (Boxer) the incidence increased clearly, so even if not every case may be genetic you shouldn´t take the risk.

Regards Ina

First off, don’t be sorry for stating an opinion Ina, it’s yours and one of the great things we can enjoy is the fact we can say what we think! (So long as we stay civil)

Now as for the genetic determination, I still beg to differ, so I will expand on my previous argument, I’ll try to keep it simple, but I apologize in advance if it gets a little technical.

Statistical analysis of the type which Wiesner and Willer must have used (roughly 20 years ago I presume?) is based on the observation of phenotypes. You don’t actually take into account the genetic make up of the animal at all, but you infer genetic information from the phenotypes which you observe.

Now this approach is theoretically perfect, but it is very difficult with this kind of approach to take into account environmental effects, especially those environmental effects that you cannot foresee.

Let me give you a somewhat silly but illustrative example. Lets say there is an isolated colony of female birds (we shall call them fems for now). Now these fems have a number of traits which are genetically determined, their plumage can be blue or grey, their tails can be long or short and their eyes can be black or grey. Now every so often a male fem flies in to mate. Every year it is this same male (lets call him prince charming) who comes to mate. Prince charming has a preference for female birds which have short tails and blue plumage. If you carried a study out on the reproductive success of these birds, you would reach the conclusion that you are faced with a situation where there is a strong correlation with genetics, and a multigenic situation at that. Fair enough. But then prince charming dies and now it’s the black prince who comes to visit the colony, and the black prince has a penchant for females who have grey plumage and black eyes. If you were to continue your study your data would become rather skewed, and you would have lots of trouble defending this data. The reason? You were using a statistical analysis to measure an environmental factor (the preferences of prince charming) even though this factor does have a genetic basis.

My argument is that something very similar applies to dogs and cryptorchidism. The basis for this argument is the actual process of testis migration, which is not only complex but takes place outside the womb, which is a relatively well controlled environment. It takes place in the living, kicking running puppy!

One must also take into account that the environmental conditions in which dog breeds evolve are particularly odd. The selection of which animal breeds successfully is almost entirely up to human discretion, thus it is the animals which best fit the arbitrary (from a darwiniean point of view anyhow) requirements of their owners. This arbitrary environment would probably not be taken into account in a statistical study which would take place today, much less in one which took place twenty years ago, quite simply because it was taken as a given.

Alright, lots of blabbing, but one can wonder, what the whole point of it all is? Lets say that having a certain shape of a pelvis is going to be a significant factor in whether a dog is cryptorchid or not. So what? Even though it is a morphological feature it is still clearly determined by genetics.

The importance of this sort of thinking is, that if you start to think that the determining factors are perhaps environmental and not fundamentally genetic, you get into a different mindset, and are able to better understand where the actual problem lies, and would thus be in a better position to determine whether a given dog should or should be used for breeding.

I cannot resist but ask… would the morphology of the hindquarters be significantly different in those races with a high degree of cryptorchidism (which you just mentioned) and those which have a low incidence of this? Anyhow, as always, just my idea.

genetical (and other) research in dogs is still done and never stopped, though I don´t know when the last statistics of this disease has been done I doubt very much that they are 20 years old. Even if you take in count the different tastes of human beings it is very clear that there are breeding lines and breeding dogs that have an highly increased amount in cryptorchids in their offspring. As you wrote before: it doesn´t really matter if it is the pelvic-construction - what I don´t think is very likely- or hormonal problems (that are thought to be the main reason at the moment). As long as we don´t know enough about the genes themselve we have to go for statistics and most statistics on genetic diseases in dogs are done on a quite big population. In Germany German Shepherds, Poodles and Boxers have a very big population, most of their puppies don´t stay with breeders but with normal families, that didn´t buy the dog because it is from a special breeder or out of a special breeding line but it is from the next breeder around or the only puppy available at the moment. It is not very likely that especially this cryptorchid-lines have been selected or influenced by a special enviourment differently to all the others.
If you look at the breeds they have very different pelvics (dog pelvics aren´t that different anyway) but are all out of breeds that are in the unlucky situation to have breeders that go for special looks and therefore didn´t select very thoroughly for health, most of those breeds have over-avarage health problems of very different kinds. German Shepherds for example don´t only have orthopedic problems but almost every other disposition you can think of. Boxers didn´t only use sires with cryptorchid problems but also with heart problems, just because they were thought to be beautiful. The offspring of this sires caused problems till today.
Interesting new points of thinking and looking at problems are always worth a discussion and research, but shouldn´t change breeding policy to a weaker selection before they are proofed to be right. We had a lot of intersting new theories in veterinary medicine the last years, most of them turned out to be totally wrong a few years later, very few of them have been right.

Regards Ina

P.S. Sorry for the sorry, in some ways it is very difficult for me to write in English and some translations are wrong or may be unpolite.

Note that I never gave any advice either way as to whether a dog should or should not be bred, I do not consider myself qualified to give that sort of advice (though perhaps to people who read what I write might get the wrong impression) For final breeding advice go to see your vet. Maybe get a second opinion if necessary.

What I was doing was speculating, which I enjoy doing. Seems like the hip structure is not really a solution, that was just an example though, my basic thought was that you were up against a *physinomical* cause as a primary cause or at least a significant cause as opposed to a genetic cause. ie most or at least many of these cases are caused by the physionomy of the animal rather than his genetics. Naturally hormonal problems are a fairly obvious possibility (though hormonal problems again are not necessarily linked to genetics) and you can also have situations where there is a malformation or even an absence of the testis (though I doubt that dogs are routinely checked to see if this was the problem or if simply the testis ended up migrating to the wrong spot and never ended up in the scrotum, correct me if I'm wrong) Bottom line is: Eight years of experience working with the genetics of several species (Humans and rats as models, but also and primarily protoozooan parasites) give me the hunch that this sort of issue is not a primarily genetic one. There just seems to be an underlying trend to pretend it is (and it is quite possible for a statistical analysis to show up a "false" genetic correlation)

Enjoyed the discussion I have to say.

PS Didn't I tell you not to be sorry? You don't have to be sorry about being sorry either... and no need to apologize about your English I can assure you it is perfectly understandable and far far better than my german.

Hi,
Why not ask a genetics expert regarding the inheritance of kryptorchidism.In humans,it is the woman who passes on the genes to produce testicles in male children NOT the man as you would assume-I think you may find the same occurs in most animals.
Simon

Hi Slarman... interesting idea, just two comments.

1) It is not a question of "passing on the testicles" but rather a question of the correct migration of the testicles into the scrotum
2) What is a genetics experts? Ina is a veterinarian who seems to know pretty well what is going on, and I, well I have eight years of research experience does that count?

Incidentally I'm really curious about that idea of "passing on the testicles" being due to the female... do you have a reference for that?

Hi,
Perhaps my wording was wrong.In humans,the woman passes on the genes to produce the males testes-my reference is biology books and science shows,the woman also passes on the size of the testes,and this can be heavily influenced thru environment,diet and the overall health of the pregnant woman.I don't say it's all the woman,the man has to influence the gene pool of the child,however,the final expression of the testes are more directly influenced by the pregnant woman in utero.
As far as expertise goes I can e-mail an animal genetics professor at the University of New England,Australia,who has authored a book on the genetics of the dog to find out more onthis subject.
Simon

In some way they are routinely checked. Abdominal testicles have a high tendency to envolve tumors. For that reason they normally are removed by surgery, at least when this happened. the abscence of one testicle is extremly rare.

Ina