German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog
 

Hi.
Sometime ago it was written on this mailing llist that the former name of
the GSD was German Wolfdog.
I'd like to have more info about this matter. Anyone?

---
Per Olav
http://www.norwolf.no

German sheperd dog vs Germaan wolfdog
 

Hoi Per,

The former name was not German wolfdog buth
Alsatian wolfdog.
Alsatian = Alsace , a region in Germany.(Elzas)
at http://www.grapevine.net/~wolf2dog/index.html
there is a very well documented article written by Ann Dresselhaus including
copy's of some pages of the originals studbook of the GS and more, also a
copy of a former Belgian magazine about the Alsatian wolfdog.
In Belgium, older people , still speak about "Elzasser" meaning a German
shephard and in older books (for instance Juliette de Bairacly Levy , a
vet.) they write about the alsatian wolfdog , meaning GS.

Greets
Roger
Belgium.

German sheperd dog vs Germaan wolfdog
 

Thank you Roger.
Love and .. eh... hugs :-)

---
Per Olav

German sheperd dog vs Germaan wolfdog
 

I believe the name was Alsatian Wolfdog.

Sanna

German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog
 

Hi everyone.

I have read Ann's article regarding the origin of the GSD. In her article
Ann says "The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche
Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to 'create' the
breed". In my letter to the Norwegian Minister of Justice this statement
may be a valuable one. If the origin of the GSD is a cross of dog and wolf,
there should be no need of a Norwegian banning of the CSV because the
origin of the the two breeds (CSV and GSD) are equal and the GSD is one of
the most popular working breeds in Norway.

The content of Ann's statement regarding the origin of the GSD is denied by
someone obviously very much familiar to the GSD. In order to present facts
I do have to have this statement verified.
Anyone? Please.
---
Per Olav

German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog
 

Per,
At the same http where you found the article there is a copy of a few pages
of the original zuchtbuch fur deutsche schaferhunde (SZ) Band 1 to 70000
erste teil 1 to 37000 .
Look at number 65 the mother is a mix schaferhund X wolfin.
And there are more on this pages.

Gr.
Roger.

German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog
 

Per,
On the same http where You found the article of Ann Dresselhaus there is a
copy of one page of the orignial zuchtbuch fur Deutsdche Schaferhunde.
for instance nr. 65 "wolffs von wolfsnest" , his mother is a cross between a
German shephard and a wolf.
"wanda-saar halbblut aus schafer und wolfin"

Gr.
Roger

German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog
 

Per,

Try this one:

http://www;grapvine.net/~WOLF2dog/uhistory.htm
than click on the art.icle sept. 18 2000
"history of the german shephard."
there are six copies , one of them is a page of the original zucht book gs.
There you can see for yourself
Ann Dresselhaus can tell You who you have to contact for a copy of the
original.
I'm sure she will help You when she reads this, isn't it Ann?


Succes
Roger.
Belgium.

German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog
 

I sent your request to a friend of mine that provided Ann with most of her
documentation. Hopefully he will join this list, or reply to me and I will be
happy to share his answer.

German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog
 

I tried this, but it did not work :roll:

German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog
 

Check this one:
http://www.grapevine.net/~wolf2dog/uhistory.htm
8)

Greetings,
Margo

FW: FW: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

Hi Margo.

Thank you for your immediate response. No, it was not ment as a joke, honestly
:-)

I was not sure if cross of wolf and GSD is recognized as a topic on our list,
and if this is causing someones trouble, I better leave the list instead of
causing any harm.

As I previously wrote, - this might be an interressting topic regarding the
proposed banning of wolfdogs in Norway. If the popular and most used
workingdog of Norway, the GSD, in its origin is a wolf/dog cross, the
authorities should have problems banning a breed like the CSV.

If a situation like the Norwegian is supposed to occur in other European
countries, then this argument also might be a good one for others:-)

Regards
Per Olav

FW: FW: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

It's not a topic of our list, but have connections with it.
I'm a really interested in crosses between wolf and GSD. I translated some
texts about history of GSD for online service about German Shepherd Dogs and
many of the first GSDs were wolfdogs (you can see it on the photos :) ). I
also spoke about it with Mr. Hartl and he told me also Stephanitz tryied to
use wolf do make GSD better. The GSD-breeders say now the crosses where shy
and absolutely useless. What's funny: they get entirely other results than
Mr. Hartl 50 years later.... :)))

Greetings,
Margo

FW: FW: FW: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

Hi Margo

Thats interesting.
A Norwegian expert on the subject is absolutely denying any wolf/dog crossing
concerning the origin of the GSD, irrespective of the content of the reference
made by Mrs. Dresselhaus.

Per O.

FW: FW: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

If it can help to bring the Norwegian authorities on other ideas this is in
favour of all wolfdogs, as wel CSV as wel as SWH, and surely not off topic.

Gr.
Roger
Belgium.

FW: FW: FW: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

Hello,

Maybe he's not such a big expert after all. It is a well known fact that
wolves were used to create todays GSD. Almost every breed history available
on the web says about wolfdogs used in the breeding.

Greetings,
Przemek

Re:: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

Can you tell me what expert you are referring to?

Sanna

VAR: Isn't it odd
 

Would this fact make the GSD breed qualified as a topic on such lists as this, being a wolf dog breed?

Sanna

Isn't it odd
 

Sorry, but not. You can find the photos and text (german version only) in
"100 Jahre - der Deutsche Schäferhund".
Here is one funny part of a texts you can find there:
"Besides it he fighted against attempts at crossing GSDs with wolfs: this
expert [Stephanitz] knew, wolfsblood is bad for persistence, endurance and
sharpness." :))))

Greetings,
Margo

CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

...and all we need to do is to show the experts photos of first GSDs breed
by Stephanitz and our F1-F3 crossings :)))) He will not be able to show the
differences... :)))

Greetings,
Margo

FW: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

I am very interested in this information too .. since several months ago I
made a statement to a group of people that "the wolf ancestor is closer then
they think" <I was talking about the GSD that my breed comes from> and
immediately some people went crazy calling my dogs wolf hybrids, wanting to
place pups into Zoo's etc. Believe me, I know how crazy people can get! I
would love to find more proof about the origins of the GSD (I do have Ann's
article) to place on our website http://www.shilohshepherds.info/

CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

I would love to see a website devoted to this type of educational material!
I think it would help a lot of people better understand the truth!

Re:: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd
 

Hi Sanna.

Sure I will. But then as a private mail. I can't see the importance of
bringing his name up on a public list like this :-)
You'll have a copy of his statements as written on a Norwegian news group
as well. There's just a few on this list who will understand our language,
so why bother translating until it's really necessary:-)

Regards

Isn't it odd
 

He must have been an idiot.

Is this a book? As I know the german language it shouldn=B4t be any problem reading it.

Sanna

Isn't it odd
 

Hm.
If I'm not completely out on the waves :-)

In the GSD stud book there are, even if denied by some, references to
crossing of local variants of shepherd dogs and wolves.
In v. S.'s book The German Shepherd Dog in Word and pictures he apply to
certain breeders not to bring in more wolf blood into his new breed
(re. the later change of name from GSD to Alsatian Wolfdog).
Margos quoting from the book "100 yrs - the GSD": "Besides it he fighted
against attempts at crossing GSDs with wolfs: this expert [Stephanitz]
knew, wolfsblood is bad for persistence, endurance and sharpness.". Could
one say by his statement that v. S is creating his new breed where
persistence, endurance and sharpness is the final goal?
Persistence and endurance is the the major advantages of the CSV, and
sharpness is unwanted?

Please understand, I'm not starting a debate on the GSD but seraching for
arguments for not letting the CSV become a banned breed in my country.
Beeing a former owner of two GSDs I'm not attempting to discriminate this
wonderful breed, only searching for angels of how to argue against a
possible CSV ban by referring to the origin of the GSD as one of many
possible ways.

Referring to this book, Margo, do you know of the author(s) and year of
publishing?

Per Olav

Isn't it odd
 

Hi Philipe, Ann,Per and all the other readers,

When we (as Csv owners) maybe can help Per with this discussion, we'll have
to continue with this item on the mailing list. Maybe in future he can use
the information to make his government accept the CSV as breed of its own.

I am a silent reader of this interesting discussion and completely agree
the reply of Philipe.

Mijke

Isn't it odd
 

Hi to you all.

I really do appreciate your support!!!!

I'd like to remind you that the Kennel Club of Sweden, my neighboring
country, not has listed neither the CSV nor the SW as approved breeds.
Maybe this discussion may help future Swedish wolfdog/wolfhound owners to
convince the board of the Swedish Kennel Club to revalue their present
point of view. And maybe a corresponding situation may occur in other
countries where banning certain breeds because of their origin or of other
doubious reasons may be imminent. Thanks to you all :-)

Per Olav

Isn't it odd - pedigree %?
 

I can tell you that in America they have different rules for each State, some
will NOT consider a dog as a "wolfdog" if he has no "wolfblood" for 5
generations .. others say that even 1% is still considered a hybrid. They
take the calculator & count -50% (cut each generation in half) so it takes
many (7) generations before you get 0.78% (less then 1%) and they can be
considered 'real' "dogs" again. Could you not prove your heritage with
pedigree's?

Isn't it odd - pedigree %?
 

The average wolfblood % for czechoslovakian wolfdogs is 28-30% and it will
stay so (because the wolfblood is not "flowing away": we do not use "normal"
dogs for breeding and if we use two wolfdogs with 30% of wolfblood the
puppies will also have 30%...).
But the wolfblood % have nothing to do with character or appearance anymore.
For example our Bolton (28.15 wolfblood %, wolf in 5. generation) is more a
"dog" than our Jolly with "only" 26.14%.

Greetings,
Margo

Isn't it odd - pedigree %?
 

I understand this, but I asked the question for the "legal" factors here in
the states.

Isn't it odd
 

Yes - this is important. As a possible future CSV-owner I certainly am interested in getting the fear of the word wolf out of the swedish kennel association, and for that matter out of everyone including the Agricultural Council which is handeling these matters.

If there will be attemps in Norway to ban certain breeds the swedish authorities will listen to this and there is no way we are ever going to be able to keep these breeds officially, and we can not use them neither in shows nor in tests of any kind.

The fear of anything connected with wolves is overwhelming in both countries. If we can show that neither of the wolfdog-breeds is anymore wolf or part wolf than the most popular GSD despite the name, then maybe that could be helpful for the future in our countries, and surely others.

So - I am certainly interested in how this may turn out.

Sanna

Isn't it odd - pedigree %?
 

By swedish authorities 5 generations is considered a "dog" (i.e. not a "hybrid") and is legal for import etc. If you can show this by pedigree you are out of danger. This is how it is now, but with the new norwegian ideas this could quickly change in both countries.

Sanna

More GSD info. Please.
 

Hi all you nice people.

I'm just about to start writing my essay to our national authoryties regarding
the proposed csv ban.

I do however need some excact information on the following subjects:

In von Stephanitz book "Der Deutsche Schaferhund im Wort und Bild" is referred
to his appeal to some breeders not to add more wolfblood into the breed.
I need the publishing year of his book, and preferably on which page this
quotation is found.

Margo quoted from the book "100 Jahre - Der Deutsche Schaferhund".
I'd like to have any information of the authors, the publishing year and the
page of the quotation.

It is mentioned von Stephanitz did not "created" the breed all by himself, but
inherited some of his process from the Phylax "network". What is the Phylax
network, and how is it related to von Stephanitz and the GSD.

Regards

Per Olav

More GSD info. Please.
 

Hello Per,

We have contact us sometimes and as a breeder von GSD maybe I can give you
the advice to get in contact with the German Shepherd Club in Germany (SV)
to get the right information about the books.
The book written by von Stephanitz is written about 1920 and there are
nowadays 3 or 4 parts from the originale one in pocketbook.
The book 100 Jahr Deutsche Schäferhund is a Jubilee edition and give out in
1998 by the SV.
Maybe they can give you some more advice and information.

You can reach the SV by www.schaeferhund.de or by E-mail
[email protected]

I wish you good luck with the whole situation.

Letty

More GSD info. Please.
 

Hi all,

Have a look to this site (Italian) :

http://www.canedapastoretedesco.it/C...Stephanitz.htm

or use any search engine (Copernic) with the keyword von Stephanitz...

Just my 2 cents if it can help...

Philippe

More GSD info. Please.
 

Per,
I think there are many re-writes and cleaned versions.
The most important thing is to find the first original, not cleaned version.

Gr.
Roger.

More GSD info. Please.
 

OK, you.ll have 'em
Just let me have your bank account number (eh.... and your PIN code - please)

Isn't it odd
 

"100 Jahre - Der Deutsche Schäferhund". Sonderausgabe der SV-Zeitung.
Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V.
April 1999

Greetings,
Margo

More GSD info. Please.
 

1) Phylax von Eulan is one of the GSD used for breeding. And he was a
wolfdog.

2) Otto Rahm researched the head (skull) of Hektor von Wohlen and prof.dr.Th
Struder find there clear features of a wolf. Rahm asked Stephanitz for the
parents of Hektor and the answer was: one of the great-grandmothers (called
"Mores Plieningen") was a wolfdog (wolf x shepherd-dog).

3) Try to look for info about A Heim. He wrote that in the years 1870-1900
there was a lot wolf x GSD crossing showed on the dog shows as "real" GSDs
and used for breeding.... Usually they were highly valued than "normal"
GSDs....

Greetings,
Margo

More GSD info. Please.
 

Per,
"The Phylax Society" was a group of German fanciers who were combining
various shephard dogs in Germany (and wolf crosses).
The organisation was founded in 1891 and existed till 1894.
A few years later Von Stephanitz organized on this basis the Deutsche
Schaferverein.

Gr.
Roger.

More GSD info. Please.
 

Hi Ann.
Yes, I do think so, thanks to you all.
I don't want to put to much info on the subject GSD, just a brief one of
the origin of the breed compared to that of the CsW.
After all, we're debating the CsW and not the GSD. But as much as possible
must be verified if the authorities ask for details.

More GSD info. Please.
 

Hi Per Olav,

Some other thing you could mention, when contacting the authorities: CsV
is the national breed of Slovakia (would banning it be a little bit odd
too ...)

Minna

Wolfdog and GSD
 

I am new to this forum and I would like to ask something about wolfdog and Czech GSD.
Do you guys think Czech GSD contain any wolf bloodine or Czech GSD is a pure german shepherd?
If you breed a wolfdog to a GSD, what would happen?
thanks

:D Hi.

I would highly recommend to read Ann Dresselhaus writings on German Shepherds early history. Says she: "The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde, shows several pure wolves were used to create the breed.
Link to this reading: http:p//www.grapevvine.net-wolf2dog/gsd.1.htm.
Or you can read Kate McMahons writings on "The Myth and Controversy Surrounding the Alsatian Wolf Dog" at: http://pages.infinit.net/paww/alsa.html

Øyvind

Hi,

In my opinion, the only way to fully answered this question is to try to built the entire pedigree of the dog(s) you're speaking of.

You can have a look to this German Sherpherd database :

http://www.akirale.com/nanray/gsdped/gsearch1.html

and use Search Engines to complete your search...

And as an answer to the second request : puppies will be out of the breed!!!... I hope...

Best regards

Philippe