Cesar about Wolf-Dog Hybrids
 

yuk,yuk,yuk lol!

Very interesting !! Good made , the infos are correct - with the exception of one :

There are no tigers existing in Africa ! Not now and not at any time.

(it´s told in the film that:....taking a wolf or high- content wolfdog in captivity or in a house ,it´s like you take a tiger out of Africa to your home...")

I´m wondering about that lack of knowledge - just because the other infos were correct and good, like I told before.

Nevertheless - fine video, thank you mijke!!:gent:cool3:ylsuper

Nice sunday to everyone here!

Uli alias Silvester from Germany

In the original film there was 3 wolfdogs and 3 problems (disobedience, fearfulness, separation anxiety). They have good ideas for helping dogs and their owners.

This film is very nice for people who want wolfdog - they see what could they have in home in future ;) Behavior of this wolf-dogs and CSV is very very similar 8) Not all dogs are like this from film but... better know everything :rock_3

But it seems to me they want to go a bit too much "Shaun Ellis" on a "wolfdog" that looks very much a pure dog :? That dog looks like a husky mix to me, I don't see much wolf there, I think they would do much better if they tried to treat her like a DOG and not like something she's not.

Define what going 'Shaun Ellis' means?!

My first thoughts were that as well.

I found some of it quite interesting.

I mean that they want to relate to this dog as if she was a wolf, trying to explain everything she does by comparing her to a wolf... it seems to me she is just a dog that has not been educated well enough, nothing more nothing less.

I can't see the video, was it taken down?

Seizes entire ethos, is based on his assumption that wild wolves and domestic dogs are exactly the same in terms of behaviour.
He works off the old dominance theory model, which has largely been debunked.

Personally, I don't rate him or his methods.


Taz

I completely agree with Fede86.

Oh, my... :roll: I'm so tired of these statements like "the animal is confused, it does not know whether it is a dog or a wolf"... yadiyadiyadiyaa...
That does not make any sence at all! -If I breed a Dogo Argentino to a Lab, will the puppies have split personalities and be confuced because they do not know whether they should act like a fierce fighter or a seeing eye quide...? :lol: My gosh... think about it.

And the thing Jennifer does to this very low content wolfdog (mostly Husky/Malamute) when it starts chasing her and grabs her leg, would be down right dangerous with a wolf or high content wolfdog.
Just ask anyone (other than Shaun Ellis) who is REALLY experienced with wolves & high content wolfdogs, they would never recommend you to try acting like a wolf and dominate the animal by staring and growling to it's face. -You might just end up loosing your face...
All the real experts on wolves & wolfdogs tell you to act human and train the animal with the same methods we know today are the most effective ways to train a dog, -or just about any animal; the positive reinforcement. All those domination theories and punishment - based training methods are old days dog training, and today scientifically proven wrong and ineffective, often causing even more troubles.

And of course, to better understand a (real) wolfy wolfdog, one should learn to understand the differences in wolf behaviour and doggy-dog behaviour. Basically all the same behaviours we see in wolves, are found in dogs too. Only the wolf behaviour is generally many times more intense. -And that is what causes probles for people who don't understand, and do not know how to handle and train an animal. -And I'm not only talking about lack of knowledge about training a wolf or a wolfdog, but any animal in general.
Also it is important to know and understand the differences in hormone activity in wolves and dogs, and especially what that often means with mature wolves / wolfy-wolfdogs between the seasons. Wolves are fertile only once a year and during that time their hormones kick in, causing some changes in behaviour.

One part that was corrct in the film was that when Jennifer said noted that the wolf is a highly territorial animal. And so it is not a "collect them all" -kind of an animal for people who want their animals to be social. But the world is full of doggy-dogs that are known to be unsocial too. And though I do not own a CsV myself, I have understood that this is typical for those too, isn't it?

And BTW; to all Cesar fans here, this is how he trains a fearfull wolfdog:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq62POnD7sA

^You call this today's dog training? Here in our country, strangling an animal is concidered illegal, and with "training" methods like this, you would soon end up in trouble with the authorities.
Also I've seen Cesar kicking the dogs, and for example using an electric collar on a black GSD to accustom it to the family's cat. -I wonder how the dog should learn to concider the cat as a friend / family member, when teached that every time the cat enters the room and the dog sees the cat, it get's painfull shocks...? :evil:

good post!! completely agree .....and as for c.m!! :twisted: :twisted:

CM & his methods
 

That dog wanted to open him up. What method would you have used? Every time I have been in a fight and choked someone out or had been choked out, my eyes, face, and skin turn red, and my tongue turns bluish, but I have never been injured from it, so I know there is a possibility (he does care for the well being of the animal even if it looked really bad (which I'm not arguing - it did) I am not wanting to appear hostile! I do not condone any form of abuse! I just think, perhaps, that was the only way to get that dog out of that state of dominance. I just can't see another way to get this animal out of that state. The last thing you would want would be for him to turn on a person (especially the handler) then he gets put down and the wolfdog community gets another bad mark. The moment the dog chilled out, Ceasar let off... Honestly, if there is a better way, please post a link. I'm just happy none of my dogs have ever been in that mindset. These aren't little dogs. :( As for E-Collars, I have put one on my own neck and used it (I use everything on myself first before using it on my dogs)..... it isnt harmful (seeing stars for a couple of seconds isn't harmful, just annoying) and I wouldn't call it pain, just very startling and attention grabbing!.. (with this said, MANY people misuse MANY types of training equipment.. and without proper training or education, many people don't need to use certain tools.. I returned the E-Collar because it didn't always make contact through heavy fur, and I was afraid I would put it on too tight... Perfect example - I wasn't properly trained to use the thing, and I didn't need it.. As far as kicking, Cesar has made it clear that he hasn't kicked the dog hard, he only used his foot as a distraction (Please tell me if I have missed a particular episode!).. I just wanted to leave my 2 cents... Again, not being hostile..

I agree. I am quite open minded and I always try to take the best from everyone's theory and methods, I watch Millan on TV and I even read his book. There are some things he says (says, not does) I agree with, for example that you have to be calm and assertive when dealing with a dog, or that many problems can be avoided or partially solved simply by sufficiently stimulating a dog with physical and mental activities.

But all in all there are two ways to deal with a dog's problems: the first is to work on the dog's "feelings" toward a certain situation, which are the cause of its behavior/reactions. The second is to forget about what the dog's mental state is and only work on the reaction itself, shaping or repressing it. It seems to me that Millan basically does the latter. Which also mean that once the control on the dog's reactions weavers, the dog goes back to act as its psychological and emotional state of mind suggests it. So you don't solve the dog's problem, only its owner's problems in dealing with them.

Now, I realize there are some (very few I'd dare to say) cases when you can no longer change a dog's state of mind, when the dog is so far gone that to work on his feelings is too hard ore you don't manage to do it. At that point the only solution to retain a minimum of control on the dog is to at least change its behavior, which is better than nothing.

But that doesn't mean Millan's way is the correct way to educate/train a dog on principle, I would only see that as the very last solution (better than euthanasia or than having the dog live the rest of his life in an enclosure), and you still have to be conscious of the fact that you have not solved the problem, only shoved it under a rug...

What I don't find wise is to publicize his methods on TV to people who mostly cannot have a critical outlook on what he does, and I also don't understand why he uses those methods as his first solution without trying to work on the dog's state of mind first, when possible. Probably because its quicker, easier and cheaper...

Exactly! I completely agree with you.

Thats it :ylsuper- I left out the part where the the owner had done the most harm in letting the dog get to that point, and you absolutely touched on what I was shooting for! If this problem (which the unwanted behavior has now been suppressed) returns, all of this fighting and choking - would be done again - the problem wasn't fixed.. This is cruel. These techniques are identical to my previously mentioned equipment, where people shouldn't have them or use them if they aren't qualified.

What you need to understand to see where he's (wrongly) coming from, is that he got his start in a grooming shop. What you have to do in a situation like that (limited time, a need to get the work done no matter what) is vastly different than what an owner should do at home. Like you said, it does absolutely nothing to work at the root cause of the problem. People saw Cesar had a knack for it, so with ZERO actual education, he starts training dogs. I'm sorry, but I'm a groomer, I am 100% confident in my own abilities as a trainer with my own pets, but I'm not about to go teaching people without getting training for myself first! We expect a certain level of education in our "experts" that we trust, but just because Cesar has a flashy, quick method, people spout it as gosspal without questioning it.

Jason, as far as other methods go, Cesar is just pushing the dog WAY too fast. You don't need to "dominate" a dog, quite the contrary, actually. Especially a dog that is already shy, it just makes it worse. People that follow dominance based training always mention wolves, but the fact that you CAN push a dog down, so to speak, and they still come back wanting to please is a trait they developed as they domesticated. The village dogs that hung around despite abuse are the ones that got the most scraps and survived to breed.

You need to work to establish trust with a dog like that before bringing it to a situation where it might react. You have no need to dodge teeth when you can easily avoid what brought the dog to that threshold to begin with.

Here's an article that talks about why dominance theory is antiquated:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss..._yJC0.facebook

I agree with you guys - thanks Vicky (for the link) I agree 100% with everything said in that article, but perhaps my definition of dominance and being Alpha wasn't "textbook". I was in the Navy for 14 years.. Never in that time was one of my seniors or officers aggressive or violent. However, they were dominant and they were leaders. Leadership, perhaps, is what most people confuse with dominance.. So when I say I am dominant, I mean "in charge" perhaps we shouldn't use Alpha because that leads us astray and into the realm of being integrated into the CANINE pack - we are a pack, just multi-species... I am confident (example given: ) when I take my dogs to this park where we hike in the woods and go to the Lake Worth spillway, my dogs wiil stay within sight of me and follow back to the car and get in when we are finished. They aren't afraid of violent repercussions if they don't. It is just respect.. On the same note, the one I actually face problems with personally, and the one that proves we aren't dogs :) (if we need proof), My animals are all well behaved, but the females (and males) want to kill each-other, regardless of what I do alone to stop a fight (I have successfully took a pair of females and a pair of males together (I had help at the time, and I used the "dominant down" for aggression, eventually achieved a state of peace ( I took them to the lake together without fights), but there still remained a measure of tension between the two. They did not fully enjoy the setting near as much as they should have (or would being paired with a different dog). I have to keep them separated, and I hate it.. They matured and stopped getting along.

My earlier post was focused on that particular dog in the video. It was already to the point that it needed fixing then and there. You saw Cesar's arm.. those weren't love nibbles (yet, they weren't at all the worst bite)..

Oh, I see, now! Yeah, semantics are all screwed up with dog training, just because of the associations connected to words over the years. Even if some ideas seem to overlap, it's become standard to drop things like "alpha" and "dominant" for other terms, like being firm with rules and not being a pushover, haha.

Just as an aside, I think the best learning experience I've had in terms of training was the wolf and dog behavior seminar my husband and I attended at Wolf Park in Indiana. They talked about how they train the wolves (only by reward and shaping behavior through treats, absolutely zero correction) and how you can use those methods on dogs, but never any other dog training (i.e. corrections, dominance, etc.) on wolves because they haven't been bred over the years to respond to humans the way dogs do. Just puts it into an interesting perspective. :)

The dog only wanted to open him up because he threw it into a situation it was not equip to deal with.

He deliberately placed it in close proximity to a dog it cannot cope with seeing (the owners told him this) waited for it to get wound up, I am not sure if he deliberately ignored the signals the dog was giving off or he was not expecting the dog to react to his 'interference' the way it did.

the dog gives several signals before it reacts - he waits for it to be right on the edge and then he pushes it over by 'nudging'. What you are seeing is redirected aggression. The dog is SO hyped due to what he has done it.

This is a great clip on how to ignore dogs body language and what can happen when you do.

I feel so sorry for the dog.

I would love to go to that seminar!!! Marcy had mentioned going, I have checked out their site and some videos.. I even bought that book by Shaun Ellis and Monty Sloan, "Spirit of the Wolf"..

That's exactly what I thought when I first saw this clip - he deliberately winds the poor dog up so that he can exact his punishment (sorry, 'correction'):( I didn't have a lot of time for his 'quick fix' methods before, but now am actually starting to detest the man for what he does:evil:

I guess I wrote so much before that my question became garbled in everything else... My actual question was, with an owner that doesn't know what to do with a dog of this capability, what other method is there? I understand if a dog belonged to an experienced trainer, there would be time to use other methods (they shouldn't have reach that state in the first place if that was the case). When someone desperate for help called Cesar, he does what is efficient and quick... Given the circumstances, I am having a hard time understanding the hostility towards him and his methods if that is what the case calls for.. He says he "Rehabilitates dogs and trains humans".. Of course there are more subtle ways to deal with issues.. I see it as an equal to some psychotherapy, where someone is driven to the breaking point to get out / over a fear, or traumatic experience..

I do not think the dog needed what he did - it was very sensationalist and made 'good' tv, which I guess is why he did it. But this was not rehabbing, it was making the dog more afraid of him, than of the presence of the other dog.

I understand

I have noticed that most Cesar fans are people who have little or no up-to-date scientific information / knowledge about the social life & communication of wolves & dogs, and what has been learned about the effectiveness of different training ideologies & methods.

Everyone who has been following his/her time in canine science aswell as the studies about the learning process in different mammals, know exactly why Cesar's methods are out dated and harmfull, and today completely lack scientific base, -or in better words: is today scientifically proven to be incorrect.

For further reading I recomment people to Google "Dominance theory", and read the articles that come up.

Also here are some that I had bookmarked:

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...imal-behaviour

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose...ancemyths.aspx

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articl...s/Yin_MA09.pdf

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss..._yJC0.facebook

The wolf bilogist Dr Dave Mech talks about why the "alpha" term he himself is somewhat responsible for, is incorrect and out dated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU

LOL... :p I guess I was trying to get someone to actually mention a specific alternative, rather than just tell me, "what he did was wrong". It is obvious that there are newer and more acceptable ways to get this specific dog to be helped... BTW, Thanks for the links...

If you hire a real, trained, licensed behaviorist, they wouldn't offer you a 'quick fix' and would have no reason to.

That is, unless someone prefers hiring someone so they can end up on TV.

PS., if that were my dog i would work on increasing his threshold, and not purposely push him over it knowing the limit of it already. and this dog is not 'rehabbed' as i would not trust him to behave better freely next time either... :/ Test the dog.. and if the dog will react within X feet, then stay outside of that threshold until you have been able to redirect the dog successfully and continuously, before decreasing the distance, for example. at least that's how i would approach it, based on what I see in this video, but of course nobody would give you unqualified advice without actually seeing and interacting with the dog in life.

that's how it is generally done, it's called "desensitization training" and its purpose is exactly to change the dog's state of mind with respect to the particular situation, by the use of counter conditioning.

The results this method gives you are final (provided you don't repeat the same mistakes), since the problem is solved in the dog's head.

The "problem" is, it takes time (weeks or even months), patience, skills and energy... Millan has to solve the situation in 10 minutes of a TV episode in order to sell his product, so he does what people generally want and expect: make the owner's life easier with a "quick and simple" method.

Thank You!! So very much.. That is what I was looking for. This is a possible example, and I know it is just speculation, but is this similar to wht you are describing? : lets say, I have my female "X" 15' away from female "Y" (the two fight any closer!), I could sit and ignore any tension between the two until one gives and looks away and then so does the other (the situation is calm - for the moment - decreasing distance according to time and progress..) Right then, I could provide a reward to the state of mind (calm and peaceful).. and this could very well continue for months! I believe I would need assistance from someone with the same knowledge to help with the other female simultaneously, right? Both want to be boss... I think I'm tracking - please correct me if that isn't so. I fully understand about the dipshits who would rather be on TV.., and with that video, there isn't enough background to give to anyone to make a proper decision.. I do however, remember the episode where this big dog was a "Red Zone" case and would attack everything and everyone he wanted (handler/owner included)... This might be an acceptable method if the dog would be put down the following day.. Thank for your input! I have mild issues that I have been slowly working on, and I want to do everything I can to make life enjoyable for my dogs as well as achieving the behaviors I like! ie: I can now walk up and feed my dogs without them going crazy and jumping all over me! (Before, I wasn't home for a while, and my mom got knocked down and injured by one that was just happy to see her)..

In my opinion, you can proceed with the same approach but you also must unfortunately realize there may be an limit it especially when it comes down to breeds known for tendencies to SSA et al; and that this may be a case of long-term management. it may be that the best you can accomplish is that the two dogs when supervised leave each other alone under direction, but must never be left alone together unattended. There is training and then there are genetics and you cannot make a pack of CsVs behave like a pack of beagle hounds.

I taught my CsV a solid 'leave it' when it comes to my little dogs and when he is getting to be too aggravating to them (stepping on them, punching them, etc). Course you start with 'leave it' at a distance on something not very valuable, and work your way up.

That's the basic concept. I'm no dog trainer but I would probably start from a distance that cause no tension at all, reducing it at a pace that never allows it to reach levels that cause the dogs to express the unwanted behavior (when eliminating a bad behavior you want to reduce its frequency to a minimum, so you avoid to put the dog in a position where that behavior surfaces). I guess the specifics of the method may vary depending on the dog and on the situation.

Good posts Fede86 & yukidomari :ylsuper
You two took the words out of my mouth (I completely agree with you, and would have given the exact same answers).

When dealing with wolfdogs, unsocial behaviour (towards other canines and especially of same sex) is quite typical, and absolutely natural behaviour for a wolf.
Wolves are often concidered being pack animals, and therefore incorrectly interpret to be social animals. But the truth is that wolves live in family units, and usually the pack consists of a mother and a father and their offspring from the last couple springs untill they mature and leave the pack to find their own territory & mate.
Of course there will always be exceptions to rules and so it is in this case too; there are some reported cases of more complex wolf pack structures than described above, but those are just that; exceptions and usually occur only under special circumstances.

CsVs
 

All of mine (with aggression problems toward each other) are Csvs.. I do have one mutt male. They all grew up together as pups.. So you you are saying there is still a chance of them never getting along together? I do not have any 3 Csvs that can be together right now, and I am very eager to try something.. I'm just waiting for something that makes sense lol..

I think you should always have the ultimate goal of having all your dogs living together peacefully, but the key is to understand it may not be possible, so you don't put unnecessary pressure on yourself and your dogs. Effective (i.e. Long lasting) training is a slow process and while at times results can be quick, training against instinct takes time. For example, it's in my husky's nature to chase anything small, furry, and quick, but we taught him the cat is off limits. The only way I felt comfortable bringing a cat into the house, though, is after 3 years of training to establish a "no chasing" command.

The problem with using the "quick fix" of dominance training is that, like it's been said, you're only treating the symptom, not the cause. What ends up happening is you "break" the dog. Sure, she'll behave, but her personality will be changed. She will lose the confidence to make decisions for fear of correction, and that's no way for a dog to live. You want to slowly desensitize to the stimulus in a way that keeps them from escalating in the first place, so they learn to be more calm on their own, because it's rewarding.

Honestly, you can read, read, read about methods that can help, but if you're confused at all about how to proceed, the best thing would be to find a positive personal trainer who is accustomed to sensitive, willful breeds. If you go to Victoria Stillwell's website, positively.com, she's started a group of trainers all specializing in positive reinforcement training. It might be a good place to start looking. :)

Just my two cents - maybe going all passive (waiting for them to calm) may be fastened a bit by active desensitization - like redirecting attention and otherwise showing the dog what is the right thing to do. But, of course, still slowly, still starting from the safe distance, and I think what complicates it is that you actually need another person to direct the other dog, as you don't want one going crazy while the other is desensitized.

But positive reinforcement is the best in this case for sure, the dog shouldn't be punished because it is put in the proximity of something it does not like. I only punish my dog if she actively goes and attacks another female even though she was told not to, and that punishment is physically taking her out of the conflict, and then giving her commands she has to obey and are completely boring and she has to do them properly and look at me, not the other dog, until she does it in the way that deserves praising and then I praise her and she can go run again. If she ignores the other bitch, or redirects her attention to me when called, I praise her. And I must say it helps, although slowly (I prefer to walk in places where there are no other females, so I don't train it often enough).

Americani, how old are your csv and which sex are they? Neutered?

To be save, means keeping only a male and female of csv. Sometimes mother and daugther works. But all other combination do not work when they did mature. I am talking about the regular average case. having two males will work if there is no female. Even a neutered female and intact female will not work. That is the normal case. CSV are to dominant and to aggressiv.

So you do not have to try to train them, but you have to seperate them and built two packs and a save fence between them, a double fence.

Christian
www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de

Thanks both of you.. Saschia, you are saying exactly what I described earlier :)

All of mine are in tact.. I have 3 females 1 - 4yrs, 2 - almost 3.. 2 males, 1 - 3 1/2 and 1 - 2 yrs

I don't want to lose hope.... All of these pics I see on Wolfdog of 5 or 6 all playing together:|... is it a temperament issue?
Thank you.. I have them separated in different pens.. I just want to enjoy the lake and hiking and do things together. I hate bringing 2 and leaving the rest at home :(

It may or may not be; and it matters if the dogs pictured are actually all related and grew up together with their mother and fathers, aunts and uncles, etc. It also matters the ages of the dogs.

Usually it is the age issue. But it is also possible to see a pack of unrelated animals of different ages and sexes and temeraments having some good time together - usually when their owners meet regularly and the dogs know they may not fight. And the photos of course are taken of supervised dogs. We had been for walks in groups of several adult dominant males and two adult dominant bitches (and one submissive one) all going off-leash at hikes and it did work.

I am convinced that with good training you will be able to have all your pack with you for walks - and it may not take so long, but it is best if you start as soon as possible and create the hierarchy of the pack yourself - like the young dog needs to know YOU do not tolerate when it tries to be too cheeky with the older one. And the older one needs to know that YOU do not tolerate if it fights in your presence. But of course they need to be desenzitized first, so that they can realize that YOU are there to solve the possible conflicts. I think this is the case similar as Mech said - a pack artificially created of unrelated animals.