What is the average content of the Czech wolfdog?
 

Hi all, I am new to the forum, and what a fantastic forum it is, my question is what is the average % of wolf in this breed? % being F1 50% wolf 50% GSD, F2 being 50% wolf/GSD and so on, does anyone know how many times the Pure GSD was bred back into the breed? I have been researching wolf content and from what I read the wolf was introduced 4 times, but I may be wrong, but I can not find information about how many times the GSD was re introduced back in to the F's?
I understand that the larger the F number is the more domesticated the breed becomes but it still has the genetic makeup bassed on the %

So is it possible to trace back to find the %???

csv's contain wolf blood but are a domesticated dog rather than a wolfcross

there is a tool on here that works out how much 'wolf blood' your dog contains ..my boy works out at 26.66(oops no ,26.61 lol)...but its kinda irrelevant imo

each dog has its own pedigree and has the dogs listed that were used.

i dont quite get what u want to know and why :oops:

Hi tupacs2legs, I supose for the same reason you you did? 26.66
Would you say that most are the same %? (with a slight variation)?

Hi again 2pacs2legs , wher on this site can I find to % calc?

hi... yes around the same % give or take a few

where is your dog from btw ...you havnt listed it in your profile.

hmm....il try and find the 'tool' for you unless someone can find it quicker :lol:

Please as I have had a quick look and cant find it

i think this is it... 'elfs' tool :)

http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

Hi, my Nero is 27,9 and Chasa 30,05%. the average is about 25-26%.
In the tool you can find very interesting informations, % about the dogs in health, wolfblood, pedigree,...

Wow !! thanks everyone.

Elf's tool is invaluable - don't know where we would be without it :)

Gives all sorts of interesting information about individual dogs plus is really useful when planning a breeding.

Our girl is 30.17% wolfblood (have to admit, I'd never looked this up before ;))

If I am reading it correctly, it gives you how many generations back the founding wolves were involved in each individual CsV - fascinating!

my farn has 29,6%, keir 28,9%, krasna 28,7% and zlata 27,4%... my future female i'm waiting for will have 31,3%... so i think the average percentage is 25-30%

That's not really accurate. There were plenty of backcrossing, linebreeding, and so forth, so it's more complicated than that.

Thank you for your input, but with all due respect I asked the question regarding wolf blood content, this has nothing to do with anything else, as I stated in my question I am under no illusion that the wolf content becomes more domesticated but the fact still remains they have a traceable wolf blood content, what I feel you may not grasp is this breed was engineered so a strict and precise history exhists, further to that from what I gather the pure breeders have strict ethics and diluting the breed would not be tollerated. I can imagine things are perhaps much diferent in the States?

Not understanding how you've interpreted my post.. I was simply saying.. your example of saying "F1= 50% wolf, 50% GSD and F2= 50% wolf/GSD and so on" is not entirely accurate because that was not how the breeding was done. As I said, there was and is backcrossing and linebreeding, and so calculations would not strictly be by simply dividing, but rather you must account for things like F2b, and linebreeding. That's all.

What do you mean by "diluting" the breed though? Do you mean in terms of the mathematical calculation of wolfblood? That number is wholly irrelevant and says nothing about the temperament or type of an individual dog.. I can assure you that no breeder makes breeding plans based on what would maintain that mathematical number.

Welcome to the forum and chill, Blaidd, Yukidomari wasn't having a go :)

Actually, things in the States are better than the UK, imo - they have a separate type of Wolfdog (high/low/mid content etc) but do not (as far as I know) crossbreed CsV's like so many people in the UK. Will you be getting involved with the group setting up to get the breed recognised by the Uk Kennel Club? I'm sure they would welcome your input being an existing owner.:) What's your dog's name and how long have you had him/her?

hmmm..... yet! lol wasnt a certain dog that was looking for a home going to be crossbred ;) (until it fell through)

Yes I agree with you, I wanted to find out what the average % was, of which I now have a good idea. From my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) the genetic makeup ie the % wont change that much, it will of course change over a long period of time such as evolution and will mutate and cary the charicteristics of the parents (in most cases) giving more domesticated offspring?

I am sorry tupac2legs you have lost me?

csv's are domestic albeit some would say 'primitive'

lol,sorry,i wouldnt expect u to know what i meant,but the person i was replying to should of..i hope ;)

Diolch everyone

Taking this into account - surely the calculator is to be taken with a pinch of salt as a general possibility (or should that be probability?). Due to the way genetics works, even in a closed gene pool there is no way of knowing how much of each Parent the offspring will inherit?

In theory, the dogs could be higher or lower than predicted?

Yes, exactly, so that's why the mathematical calculation is really not useful information, it's 'just for fun' as to the I suppose 'average' possibility assuming dogs inherit exactly half of characteristics (which we all know it doesn't).

Always nice to keep these things in perspective :)

exactly why i said its irrelevant ;) (in my first post)

If it is irrelevant then why did you calculate your own dog???

I also think it is irrelevant, because i have a dog with 100 % CSW-blood :mrgreen:.

Thanks for your comment, but this has been a wealth of information for myself everyone else who has posted, after all, this is a forum for the Czechslovakian Wolfdog, not the Czechslovakian Dog , but please correct me if I am wrong ??

Oh dear,I came across it when using the tool for something else.....and?
:lol: indeed
Actually they are vlcak's I suggest u look up what it means and translations ;)

What's got a bee in your bonnet? Were the answers from people that know the BREED not want u wanted to hear?

Eta .... The word vlcak....

Vlčák means all German Shepherd Dog and wolfdogs in the Czech language cs:Vlčák. Word vlčák is derived from vlk (wolf). Vlčák or Německý vlčák (German vlčák) means also German Shepherd Dog in common Czech. Correct Czech name of German Shepherd Dog is německý ovčák.

I think maybe you are putting too much on the 'wolf content' as there was a helluva lot more GSD's used ;-)

I wil, because i said CSW ;).
Czecho Slovakian Wolfdog.
And I have a CSW ;-).

But stil, it is a dog :biggrina.

I thought this was a discussion forum? not a bitching forum? I find both of your attitudes rather poor at best,

2packs I see from your other posts that you seem to enjoy putting everyone you can down, I find it rather distastfull.

My question has been answered, for my research my question was relevent and the Elf link gave me a wealth of information.

:lol: AND WELCOME TO THE WOLFDOG FORUM! :twisted:

Just for interest why do you feel it is important?

who do i put down? i defo do not enjoy putting people down!

i didnt like your attitude in the post so i replied with the same attitude,mind u whats wrong with saying something is irrelevant imo...as its my opinion to have :?
and disagreeing is part of discussion is it not?

;) exactly and only for this reason.

You said please,............................:?.
I did nothing more you asked for ;-).

and

I see its used by other breeders i,e shadowlands etc on this thread


so is it wrong to ask? show interest in how this breed was formed? or are you just having another rant at a newbie for asking a question? I note you didnt ask the other people on the thread why they felt it was important to use the tool? or is it ok for some to use and not others?

I see that Blaidd states clearly in opening the tread why he was interested and I have had a go to see what wolfblood is in my dog its only human to be interested isnt it?


whether its a breeder using it for info, a potential owner or just for research its still a great tool and useful.

I dont understand why you insist on making mountains out of mole hills

I see that Blaidd has a pure dog, wouldnt it be better to welcome him with open arms involve him in your plans to KC register the breed in the UK and
get to know him than try to play mini detectives and pull at threads and play on words!

If you keep doing this to newbies support will dwindle for your plans

IN MY OPINION

DONT BE PUT OFF BLAIDD NOT ALL FORUM MEMBERS ARE LIKE THIS SOME ARE REALLY HELPFUL AND SUPPORTIVE

You should look and read the threads on UK Kennel club registration some of the forum members on there are trying to work together for the breed recognition in the UK.... once you get over the back biting underneath I think they are trying to work together.....

Good Luck!

It is not anything a breeder places any emphasis on - it's just for fun

Have you just contradicted yourself?

Sorry Blaidd, I don't understand how...

I said in my original post that I had never looked up the wolfblood before and that was what I was referring to as a bit of fun.

Elf's tool, on the other hand, is invaluable to breeders.

Hope this clears things up :)

I cannot see how anyone could believe it is a good thing to be buying a 'breed' and not know what has made it up??Inuits (British and Northern), Utes, British Wolfdogs....(and the things we are not allowed to mention)...are marketed by many as a breed (wrongly IMO)...to be unaware of what has gone in (so many people do not even seem to realise there is Sibe or Mal in there).
It is unfair on the people buying them IMO.



Sound farmiliar?

No? - you know what this breed is made up of - what you cannot know is the exact content of what is in the individual dog. Do you look at Manchester terriers if you are looking into Dobermans and ask how much of them are in the individual dogs? The CSV is a Breed of dog.....

Wither regards to the Inuit/ute x's etc, they are just that - a crossbreed. I cannot see how the 2 are comparable. :?

Yes, I have read this post somewhere ! on another forum

I think its perhaps alright to find out what is in your crossed mutt but not acceptable to be interested in what makes up your pure wolfdog be it for fun or not!!

In this case it is not a "breed" it IS a breed. If you were buying dogo Argentino, would you like to know exactly what amount of boxer, great dane, pointer or bullterrier blood it contains? :rock_3 For some reason, I doubt.

You see, the problem is that many people want CsW just because they want a WOLF, and this is a really wrong reason. They first of all should want a working breed. Believe me, when you get phonecalls of people, interested in wolfdogs, and you ask WHY they want exactly this kind of dog, and you hear "because my soul is so close to a wolf", then you want to bite off your own head and throw it into a river... This is why people are not clapping hands about the questions about wolfblood - there are much more important questions to ask about this amazing breed first ;-)

Haha, seems like I just wrote same things as Tassle did before, anyway, worth repeating :D

Exactly Vaiva ..I have other breeds and if there was a calculator how much of other breeds went into creating my individual dog, it would certainly be fun but I would take it as seriously and as meaningful as the online quizzes that purport to tell you "who your true love is" and "what nationality are you?"... :lol:

The 'information' you get from such silly online quizzes and calculations of 'blood' - any type - is totally meaningless and only meant for entertainment or for when you are bored. and again no breeder is thinking about these 'results' when making breeding choices... :)

if a person really wants to examine the breed origins, the answers are right there are in the pedigrees. Those are actually helpful in tracing lines, and probable characteristics. :)

So I can recomend a more interesting test than ones about wolfblood :D Here http://theoatmeal.com/quiz/plotting_eat

Still, when a new person on the forum asks about it, you can never be sure, he is not trying to look for a high content, not for exterior, character and health... :roll:

ok, lets put this to bed once and for all!

when I am out with my dogs many people ask what they are and i reply czechoslovakian wolfdogs the obvious next question is usually how come a wolf dog do they have wolf in them, I usually just smile and say yes originally they did but by the time i've explained a bit more they are glazed over and confused. Even my vet asked me if I knew of what % wolf genes would be left now? So I thought I'd ask on here, Ive followed the site a while but thought it was a valid ask!

Wether it be fun or not , I am so disturbed to find why one question is disected so much by 'wanna be ' experts!

From what you are saying, my dog is a german shepherd cross and the wolf part is of no importance?

Perhaps I should have just registered them as german shepherd crosses and then I wouldnt have had such problems bringing my pets with me to the UK.

oh wait I see that some 'member' already advises people to do this giving advise to a student who asked how to bring his dog with him?

Before geting angry you should first try to find an old topic about it - that would make things more clear.
And maybe it is worth looking for certain wolfish features in character and exterior, in health and so on, not the percents, if you can not accept that you have a normal formed dog breed.

..........

Perhaps its a language barrier as I see no anger in my last post??
But if it gives you something to bitch about then feel free ;-)

To be fair I thought there was a air of suspicion towards Blaidd for asking a simple question.

That second line was'nt really helpful or needed

Put it down to once bitten, twice shy......

Lol, if you consider all dogs are a subspecies of wolf, then I own all 100% wolves. :lol: And of course, there are the theories that the GSD also has recent wolf crossings in it's creation. I prefer to fall back on the more complex answer of selection for type when answering outside people's mindless questions. And then I just let my (usually well-behaved) dogs speak for themselves.

put it down to being purely rude:roll:

all UK owners should not be tarred with the same brush some of us care for our dogs,live with them and dont want them as breeding machines but as family pets and companions

and with 20 years experience of GSD and 10 years owning CsW in and out of the UK I think I have enough experience to form a comment and have an experienced opinion:lol:

GalomyOak...what do you mean by 'outside' people and mindless questions?!

Just how many poor UK owners are there?! Dont the major majority that show a genuine interest in the breed want a companion and a family pet?
I think it is important not to act on prejudgements

Good for you - how much experience do you feel is needed to form an opinion then?
Will you only listen to people who have owned the breed longer than you?

why the bitchyness?!

Hi Blaidd have you seen the thread on british kennel club recognition your views wouild be welcome

Thankyou pixie, yes i did read it after another forum member pointed me in that direction.however I am put off by the narrow minded behaviour of some members of the forum and they seem more interested in bitching than actually the importance of the thread. would I want to be on a committee with this type of person NO which is a shame because their actions could also be putting off guests with 'companion dogs' joining this forum.

Thankyou Murph,

I am referring to the people that come up to me...on a busy main road full of crowds - and ask me "Is that a wolf?" or the people that come up fussing at me how irresponsible it is to own such an animal (I get this especially when I am walking my big, totally stable male, Bongo, who is a therapy dog that works with mentally students prone to outbursts and "odd" behaviors :lol:). I mean, c'mon. Unfortunately, this isn't limited to the average person walking the street; "experts" also exhibit this reasoning from time to time as well...it's why we decided to go with Vlcak in the US instead of wolfdog.

I was referring to this comment (maybe clueless is a better term than mindless):

"when I am out with my dogs many people ask what they are and i reply czechoslovakian wolfdogs the obvious next question is usually how come a wolf dog do they have wolf in them, I usually just smile and say yes originally they did but by the time i've explained a bit more they are glazed over and confused. Even my vet asked me if I knew of what % wolf genes would be left now? So I thought I'd ask on here, Ive followed the site a while but thought it was a valid ask!"

There is no need, really, to explain to these people "how much wolf" is in my Vlcak. They have already developed their own ideas based on what they see. More important is to describe the value of our breed, and how they have been selectively bred for many years, and let them interact with my dog. If they are receptive, then I will explain more. The coolness of dogs (or wolfdogs) is the ability to control their genetic variability within a relatively short period of time.

Shame, it seems to me its the breeders on here that are not fully behind this move and are slagging off companion owners, I have my suspicionns why. the fact some people are not interested because of faceless bitching and backbiting is quite annoying

I'm puzzled by the conception that everyone wasn't being helpful or was only being bitchy. I presented the facts as they are, really. If your vet or whoever advised if you knew the % of wolf in the dogs, he or she has a poor grasp on genetics, as, again, the number is neither indicative not accurate.

If pressed I prefer to simply say that the breed has been in closed stud book status for ~30 years, and that the foundation was a handful of Carpathian wolves and many GSDs at a CZ border patrol kennel. and that the last wolf added in regards to my specific dogs' pedigree is (6, 7, what have you) generations ago if someone is real curious. That's basically the most accurate info I can give them, really, because if you think about it, if by pure mathematical calculation, a wolf x dog breeding plan can achieve ~30% in 3 generations. Definitely not an accurate description of either the breeding that happened, nor useful information regarding breed foundation.

PS. Does this post make me a 'wannabe expert'? :D

I was trying to use the elf's tool, but I'm having some problems with it. I entered a dog's name but I only got a blue page with no information.
Can somebody help me out; I was trying to look for the mathematical (theorethical) wolfblood content of the dog Oxbow Léva-Nève.
Just out of curiosity.

Edit: OK, I got it working with Explorer (didn't work with Mozilla)

Hi Jenni,
You must use the dog's database ID number, for Oxbow that is 10973.

His theoretical content:
http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...y?dog_id=10973

gutted to see when i go on the uk kennel club reg forum thread that its only for the chosen few and they are isolating it to breeders online and themselves its a shambles!!!!! I am disgusted

:oops: WELCOME TO THE WOLF DOG FORUM ITS A WELCOMING PLACE

:?:?

I am not a breeder online? I am not sure where you are looking, but at the moment, it looks like anyone with a positive input is being taken seriously....

Looks like the chosen few to me, and this will in my opinion cause more unease

A bit off topic, according to the database this dog is in Finland, do you know something about him?

Hi Nebulosa, Bit Off Topic your request for info ehh?

And? If it start a new topic inside this one is only split it.

Hello Jenni,

The mathematical wolfblood percentage of Oxbow Léva-Nève is 28,077% Click here

It isn't necessary to fill in the dog's number. Also its name works in Elf's tool. Just fill in the word "oxbow". The system accepts no strange characters, so it is advisable in some instances only to type a part of the dog's name in the entry field.

A very valuable tool that I take a lot of searching with, especially now that wolfdog does not show statistics anymore and also the possibilities of making different calculations (f.e. C.O.I)isn't possible since more than one year.

Regards

Thank you all for delighted comments, still very glad this tool helps !

@Jennin, I had a Léva-Nève SH, I saw you're mushing, do you own one ?

Nebulosa, Oxbow is one of the dogs who is foundation stock to the Tamaskan breed.

Yuko, the stud book for csw is still open!

Of course it is interesting to know the wolf %. I know a lot of people who are interested in that number. And that is the reason why wolfdog.org did throw it out! If it is only a number and nothing value, why the hell it was thrown out?

But the point is, that the main important thing in a wolfdog is the wolfgenes or dog genes which he gets from his parents. So you can find in Finland some F 2, F 3 wolfdogs with only 25 to 32 % bred out of an american wolfdog and Siberian Husky who act like a F 2 high content with 80 %. So in the end the wolf % is not so interesting.

But because wolf % are not so interested and only a number I am wondering why here some people say and do so, that a csw is "only" a recogonized dog breed????? If the wolf and dog genes are important for the animals so you will find of coure F 6 animals who act more like wolf than like a dog!

I wrote it several times even in Alaskan Malamute, Siberian Husky, Basenji, Saluki, Chow Chow, Shar Pei, Afghan dog and some old more than 500 years old breeds do have wolf genes in them! So it lays on the hands that a csw is full of wolfgenes of course! Wolfgenetic scientist will laugh loud if you ask them that question.

Galy, there are even american wolfdogs F 2 who work as therapy dogs. By the way I know what I am talking about, I have an almost 8 year old csw female, an almost 6 year old csw male, a 3,5 year old very high content american male, a 4 year high content american female and two pups 6 month high content male and female from my female. And the female is a better dog than all dogs I know.

Christian
www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de

yes,both Sibes and Mals are amongst the 14 most ancient breeds of domestic dog, and as such, are in evolutionary terms, further from their wolf origins than most other domestic breeds.

I like your tool very much, I have spent quite some time playing with it, thank you :tard

Besides the breeders hanging papers and unofficial outcrossing, can you help me understand which FCI-participant country openly allows outside studs which are accepted FCI-wide?

Thank you.

Tupa, what do you mean, mutation was runing earlier and that is why you think they are more far away from the wolf? Wow, this opinion is the first time I read. But why do you for example Malamutes have 43 ways to express themselves, but a german shepard has only 12? Mimik in their face body, I mean. And why does a Basenji gets only 1 time a year in heat???

I would say you are completely wrong. Better you read this paper http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture08837.html . The main author Prof. Dr. Bob Wayne sent it to me, if anyone wants a pdf copy please mail me, I will send [email protected] . I couldnot find the whole article without paying.

Yuko, do you know Monika Soukupova, breeder z Molu Es of ccsw for 25 years? She is special judge, dog trainer pp. She told me last year during world dog show, that the stud book is still open. And so far I know the clubs in each countries are allowed to cross in a wolf, if they can expalin why it would be necessary for the breed.

Christian

Hi, thanks for your answer. I am familiar with the name you mentioned. But what you describe - clubs being able to outcross with consensus - is not an ' open stud book', at least, not how the term is used in the USA. EVERY national KC recognized breed club of any breed in the US can vote to accept outcrosses, essentially it means no breed has a closed stud book.

Open stud book as I understand means the KC accepts for registration dogs of unknown back ground, usually by phenotype, from a club or anyone without many exceptions. Usually it occurs at the foundation years of a breed.

By the way, the way you explain it, are clubs are ONLY allowed to cross in wolves as an outcross option?

I am not sure, if I understand you right - maybe language barrier -, but in germany for example, I could go with a from me bred for example F 1 czech wolfdog to be phenotyped. The german akc = vdh would give me register papers and I would be allowed to do shows. I am not sure in that moment, if I could use him immediateley as stud dog, but so far I know under certain circumstances I am allowed if taking a female with normal pedigree.

In germany the csw clubs are not recognized from VDH. It means to get the permission for breeding it will do the german akc. In the french herding dogs Briard for example the two german clubs are allowed to give permission. The vdh wants to have their hand on the breed. The two clubs are trying for many years to get the permisson. So in case of germany the vdh must allow. So far I remember the club must always talk to the country FCI club (means akc, vdh, enci pp.) to get permission to cross in for example a wolf.

In germany they do hybrid breeding with Eurasier. They cross in Samoyed. this dogs are called hybrid as well. And this went with permission of club and vdh.

Christian

Hello,

the Slowakian Club, who has as we all know the patronat for the breed, decided some time ago in response to Mutara and other illegal "outcrosses" not to accept any dog that is registered. As far as I know this decision hasn´t changed.
The VDH (German KC) decided in agreement with both German Clubs to give registry pedigrees in future only for show purposes. Pedigrees for breeding will only be given in special cases like DNA-proofed offspring of FCI parents. The reason for this decision have been registered dogs with shepherd parentage, hybrids out of other countries etc.
Being the FCI what it is this has not much influence on other countries but nonetheless is not an open stud book.

Ina

Yes basenji's only come in to season once a year,but it is not normal for the siberian to do so,and some giant/very large breeds only come into season once a year. :?

.....so do some Border collies!!

I wasn't going to reply because this topic has come up before, but I can't help myself! :) When you're looking at dogs as being related to wolves, you can't just look at reproduction as a deciding factor. It's one trait out of billions that are related to genetics. They've done studies of the dog genome to determine relationship to wolves and have found that, despite existing for longer as a whole, most ancient breeds are actually closer related to wolves. It makes sense if you think about how the dog's were produced. Ancient breeds developed somewhat naturally where dogs created more recently have had a lot more human intervention. It stands to reason that this human selection would create dogs that are genetically further from their ancestors.

As far percentages go, it's already been explained really well, but since genetics are random, you might get a "20% wolfdog" and "80% wolfdog" out of a litter produced of a pure wolf and a dog. When it comes to breeding, then, if you think about the traits you breed towards are the more dog-like ones, you more quickly breed away from the wolf genetics despite the number of generations.

Here's a page that explains it well, and shows actual examples:
http://wolfpark.org/ccpage3.shtml