czw puppy
 

Hello,
I'm new to this forum and with new czw puppy :) ..He is 8weeks old now, got him at the age between 5-6 weeks..Well i just wanted to say hi to everyone for now ;-)

Hi and good luck with you puppy! :) Is this your first czw?

Welcome to your new world :) and have fun with your new companion.
This is the best place for information and help when the going gets tough (which it probably will, then you can laugh about it after :p)

Yes, It is my first czw.. I can put some pictures later :-)

So i have a question for czw owners now..Did a czw as a puppy ever attack you agressively? He bit me pritty fine, he was also snarling very much..The whole situation looked very agressive to me..It did heppen two times to me before, but not as much as now..And method pulling/shaking his fur only made it worse..What did somehow work was putting him on his back and holding down until he calmed..But i can do that now as he is puppy, but i doubt i will be able to do it when he grows up..
Oh, what lead to this was putting him on leash and it started, anyway he was looking at something and didn't want to listen to me either..

If i look at other things, he is very fine, smart, and pritty much obidient for a puppy..But it freaks me out that this agression will lead to something worse..

Thanks anyone..

Pups often treat humans as if they were dogs, and use their teeth to communicate their will; and vlcaks are VERY willful, belive me. 8) It has nothing to do with aggression but your aggressive response may stimulate his and in the end you'll end up with a beast ;)

If your pup bites, try to turn his attention to somethig else. Tell him to sit down and give him a treat, start running with him, throw him a ball, etc.
At home take you hand away calmly, put him aside and ignore him. He must learn that he has your attention only when he behaves as you wish.

You have to be very consistent! Only then will he realize what you want from him. Don't get discouraged if these methods don't work. With CSV it's often the case that they seem to be 'deaf and dumb' for quite a while, and then all of the sudden start obeying.

You need to develop a 'common language' with your pup - learn to read his signals and teach him yours. This requires time and a lot of patience on you part! But remember that a good pack leader rules with his brain, not by force, so try to avoid physical confrontation as much as you can. 8)

If you want to teach your pup walking on leash take delicious treats and walk with him prizing him and giving treats when he walks nicely. Do it in short sessions few times a day. I'd also recommend teaching him giving back food/bones in exchange for other treats as early as possible. It's important to practise it when the pup is little :) This will also strenghten your position of a leader.

I'd advise you to adopt one principle: if you don't understand your pup's behaviour don't judge him, but try to figure out what he wants to tell you :)

Talking about aggression, have you ever seen CSVs playing with each other? :rock_3

PS I remember during our first walks Lorka often used to suddenly sit down and for a few minutes watch the environment. This was part of the learning/socialisation process.

Thanks for replay :)
Well i did see them playing, it isn't the same i would say..Also the breeder gave me advise that in such "agressive attack" case i should slap him on nose as i would "bite" back and have to win the battle always..So that won't happen when he grows, as he realizes that he shouldn't do it.
Ofcourse i use un-psyhical methods if it works...But she said that works best for her..Probably she knows what she is talking about, also she breeds for 7 years..
I was just a bit frustrated so i had to ask here, didn't know when she will answer :-)
And ofcourse i always use "positive reinforcement" when he does as he is supposed to.
If you have any more special advises about such behavior please tell me :-)

Thanks.

Anyway about walking on leash..He does know it already, it was just yesterday problem after some time..Thats why i mentioned..I was teaching him to walk.."heel"? Is that the english word for walking by feet?..He already did walk pretty well that way too..But just sometimes he struggles :-)..
But he's just a czw puppy..We have lots of time for exercises later.

If you got your puppy early at 5.5 weeks, as you said, it's possible your pup didn't learn enough about bite inhibition from his littermates. Generally the time between 4-7/8 weeks is considered an important time for socialization for littermates (this can also be a problem also if there is only one pup in a litter). In this time, puppies bite eachother in play, and learn (when their brothers and sisters yelp in pain) how hard is TOO hard to bite. I would speak with a good trainer, try to find some good articles by searching for "bite inhibition", and remember that you do have a puppy. ;-) Rolling a young pup on it's back (alpha rolling) can have some bad effects on the puppy mentally...again, find a good trainer. Like Rona said, wolfdogs can seem...emm, crazy, deaf, defiant...and then one day, the "storm is over". Good luck!

Well, first of all i don't think there is any czw trainer at my place(Slovenia) and second, when he is biting as playing, he is gentle, however i have reduced his biting to human, shoes etc. for like 50% already..And as his breeder said it's normal and anyway she always gives me advises about it..I think i will be able to handle it alone, but however such attacking behavior will not be tolerated..
And as i said in other aspects he is very nice and obidient. And yes ofcourse, he is just a puppy.

Thank you all

Oh and guys dont understand me wrong about slapping his nose, i would never beat him..and about early taking him at 5.5weeks i totally understand about bite inhibition, so i have to teach him that..Thankfully i always got answers from breeder, and if you ask me i think she is very good with it. But more opinions are always welcome.. Thank you all..

I wouldn't think rolling the pup on the ground would harm it - after all the mother does it all the time. But it should be of course used sparely and with knowing what I mean by it.

And about alpha roll..i use it only for hard corrections if "no!" doesnt work and other soft corrections dont work too..as in such attack or too rough playing when over excited ..for example on walks he would start hunting my pants and biting ..but usually i dont need any force and doesnt happen often.. And i learn all the time, read as much i can, i started few months before he was born and planned..The problem is just that most websites offers same info, short and not so much needed..Also i started socialization immediately from next day he was brought home.. And aggresion as i was talking is rare too..i think he also understood what he did when i showed him my finger with little blood and he looked kinda sorry, he was then gentle, smelled it and licked it..he wouldnt bite it again at that point.. Now tell me about how you teach them not to hunt? He was up to some ducks last time..breeder said if of leash i should run and hide, or correct him if leashed.. What methods you use?

Hello,

če sem prav razumela Rush si iz Slovenije. Tudi jaz imam prvič czw in sicer samičko staro 4,5 mesecev. Kar opisuješ mi je zelo znano, od prvega dne ko smo jo pripeljali domov je njena igra "agresivna". Vse nas je že močno pogrizla,
probali smo že kar nekaj metod, pa je vsaka prvič delovala, čez par dni pa ni več delovalo, kot bi postala "odporna". Zdaj jo primemo za zgornjo čeljust da jo malo zaboli in rečemo NE. Zelo je vztrajna z zobmi ko hoče od nas izsiliti igro.
Drugače je pa krasna, vedno je vesela kužkov in ljudi na sprehodu, vsem se pusti božati, z drugimi kužki se krasno razume. Do mlajših majhnih kužkov je izredno prijazna in zelo nežna. Z nami pa vedno znova preizkuša meje.
Pa še glede vaje "skrivanje" je res super, tako veselje ko me najde.
Na sprehodu jo dostikrat spustimo s povodca, ko sreča kakega kužka se jo ne da priklicati, tako da začnem teči sama naprej in ko ugotovi da me ni takoj pride za mano.
Vesela sem da je še kdo iz slo na tem forumu,
pa če imaš kak nasvet ali vprašanje kar napiši.

Eva

Zdravo Eva,

Z agresivnostjo nisem mislil na igro, to grize vedno v igri in tako, kar sem mislil je bil pravi napad, močno renčanje, močen ugriz do krvi..Kar sicer ni pogosto..
Vzrediteljca mi je rekla da mu morem dat klofuto v tem primeru, in vedno zmagat, saj se zavedam da ko bo odrastel ne bom več močnejši od njega, zato morm to zdaj zrihtat..S kje pa si? Vem da je v naših koncih ena samička, Radovljica..
Nebi bilo slabo da bi se enkrat dobili da se igrata..:)

Lep pozdrav,
Matevž

Two picture of my czw pup..Hope i uploaded it right.. :-)

Hello! Congrats on your new puppy!

'now tell me about how you teach them not to hunt? He was up to some ducks last time..breeder said if of leash i should run and hide, or correct him if leashed.. What methods you use?'

If I knew my dog would run off after animals, then I will not let him or her off leash until we have proofed a good ' leave it' command. But of course it takes a long time, and even then some dogs' prey drive is too strong to teach an infallible ' leave it' to, and those dogs just cannot be off leash then.. I have a dog like that so she is never off leash.

Well becouse of such reasons i try to have him off-leash as much as posibble, so he will learn that he can freely run few meters from me or beside me if he is good with that and so he wouldn't run away..Becouse in my opinion if i would have him leashed all the time and then i would try to have him off-leash he might get that as: "I'm free to do anything i want now"..I'm not experienced but just my opinon..
So i try to have him unleashed and control and correct him when needed..So that he would know that even if he is free of leash there are still limits..
Maybe i think wrong, but i will see it trought time..
Also at home, i'm starting to leave him alone on yard for few minutes and give him praise when i come back..
Anyway as he is puppy he is afraid to be alone(Thats reason for hunting-run away). And it's always true, he never goes far, he always follows..And i hope i can teach him to keep that behavior even when he grows up..

Thanks for help
Matevž

It is always best when training dogs to try and set them up to get things right.

Often if you train with punishment based methods, the punishments have to become increasingly more severe as the dog get the rewards from life.

I would start (as another person mentioned) teaching a leave it command on low value items, moving towards higher value as he learns the command better.

I have sometimes used a trail lead (with harness) to allow the dog freedom without restraint, but allowing me to retain control and prevent the dog from gaining any reward (in this situation, a chase) from the environment.

I used this with my CsVx when he was younger to teach him to ignore Sheep. It is still a work in progress and I would NEVER trust him off lead around them, but he can quite happily ignore their presence now.

Well at eight weeks, your pup doesn't have a fully developed prey drive anyway. But it would be dangerous for me to let a developing adolescent dog who hadn't been proofed off leash.. He could get hit by a car or shot for harassing wild life here. But, that's here, and may not apply to you. Good luck with your training.

It's all true about cars, so as i said i have to control him all the time, keep an eye on him, also other dangerous things out there, but i doubt for being shot, especially as he is puppy..If you mean it in woods or so..

If i would go to the city where there is lots of traffic, or walking on road where there is many cars i would have him on leash..Mostly what i meant with as much as posibble to have him off-leash i meant in woods, fields and where not many cars and dangerous object would be.. :-)

I don't know how it is in Slovenia, but here in Bulgaria there is still a bounty on wolves so we never go into the forest at the weekend when the hunters are around. They would shoot first, ask questions later (like 'Why was that wolf wearing a bright red collar?'). :cry:

We go daily to the fields and down into the valley to the river but I always make sure it is late in the evening when all of the livestock is back home. Occassionally we will meet some shepherd with goats or cows or something but they are always the ones who are nervous of Shadow even though she has never done anything to deserve this as she is good and comes when called.

As yukidomari says, it is vital to have a rock solid 'leave' and 'come' response before you let them off lead. Shadow was exactly like your pup when she was small (our neighbours used to tease me about it and ask if she went further than 10m away on her walk) but, believe me, that will soon change!

well, about wolfs its no problem here, there are in one part of country but not here.. Yes i know it will soon change about walking near me, but until then im trying to make him understand he does it right this way.. But im also training come all the time..for leave it i just use no..is that not good?

so you had your pup leashed all the time until he was obeying come command?and leave it? What was the result after growing?

Until Shadow had the 'come' and 'leave' commands, she was only off leash in a contained place (where I knew there were no creatures for her to chase) and on a long leash elsewhere. Now she is 3, we haven't regressed and she listens well. I only use these words as they seemed right for me - as long as your pup understands and responds appropriately, it doesn't matter what word you use but I felt that 'No' is used too often in normal speech and that she may get confused.

What kind of punishment did you talk about now Tassle?

I apologise for the two responses.

I was talking about this

It is not a method I agree with I'm afraid, people trying to behave like other dogs does not work IME. We cannot hope to recreate what any dog will do to another due to the interactions between them we are not aware of and the body language that we cannot hope to recreate (Physical differences)

I understand some behaviours have to be stopped, chewing dangerous items for example. In this instance I tend to use distraction or diversion, and then set the situation up so the puppy cannot do the action again or does not want to.

One of the worst things you can do to your dog is ignore him, so separation periods can be useful. Puppies do not like being separated, so if the puppy is biting or getting too over the top, I will remove myself form the situation or remove th puppy. Often these occur when the puppy is over tired and they do not know how to switch off. These times can often be predicted, (later evenings or after meals) and so you can be prepared to give the puppy a better way of releasing the tension. Having a special chew or toy to chew that is only produced at these times.

I am aware that dog training methods vary in different countries. These are my own views based on my own training and experience as a trainer.

Aha ok thanks..I see that methods from one to another are pretty different, my breeder is also qualified trainer and her approach is a bit different.. Well i cant walk away if i talk about biting on my backyard because he would probably go on something else and forget bout me for some time(no effect?)..As i say i try to avoid physical corrections.. Last times when he goes on unappropriate items or cats food i just turn his head away and say no so i redirect attention..and it works..just i feel about alpha roll is needed when i cant do better to let him know NOW as puppy who is on top..Its ok then after 5sec he is calm, but sometimes could be half a minute or so needed..And i dont do it just for normal biting, but hard, snarling biting..but as i said im avoiding such approches as i can.. Feel free to correct me:)

Well also turning his head away is physical but doesnt bother him neither me, i find it best method for now..in that cases i said..Oh and also ofcourse when he bites me i put one of his toy in his mouth instead and show him that is right..if that works its no need to ignore him..And pretty often it does..But you said when he is tired..as i see he bites mostly of being overexcited not tired:) After all he is better and better every day, alltrough he bite me in my lips yesterday for welcome home, but was excited biting and jumping..no problem, just need to teach him to be calmer at such situations.. :-) Thanks for all your time and help guys..

To Tassle: I find your comments very logical :)

I think with CSV it's worth trying various methods, because the dogs vary from each other a lot. What works with one, does not necessarily work woth another. That's why following blindly somebody else's advice (even the best!) may not be always the best idea.

For bringing up a vlcak, I wouldn't even use the word "training" but rather "devloping communication patterns". :? Any methods (even the most crazy ones) are OK as long as they're efficient and do not destroy the owner's relationship with the animal.

I remember at some point my pup was biting me (and other members of the family) when coming back from walks. She used to jump on our sleeves and tear them, sometims in the middle of the street! I interperted her behaviour as calling "I don't want to go home yet! I want to go on playing with my friends".
I understood her messgage, but had to inform her that such behaviour would not be accepted.:p I took a leash with a steel thread inside (for her safety), and the moment she started biting, I tied her to the nearest solid item (a pole, a bench, once even a church door ;)) and walked on about 10-20 meters without her, while she could see me all the time. Then I stopped and watched her for a couple of minutes, returned, untied and we went on together. When she was walking nicely - I was giving her treats when started biting again- I repeated the whole process. Sometimes it took us an hour instead of 10 minutes to get back home, but in the end it worked - she understood what I wanted her to understand.:)

I'm not saying this method would work with every vlcak, but that in most cases it's possible to find a way to pass the information to the dog efficiently. It's just the matter of imagination and non-conventional "tailored" thinking based on the observation of a particluar dog.

It's true that separation works, but for the CSV pup it's one of the most severe punishment, so it has to be used with great caution, as it might impede the relationship. We used it only for the "worst crimes" ;) and only for short periods of time (from 3-5 minutes to half an hrs when she was older). Besides the difficulty with separation is that the dogs must never be let out when howling (it would be a reward for howling :twisted:)

Very good post.

I always say to Puppy owners Separation is the worst form of Punishment you can give. (to which they often look at me as if I am mad!) Dogs are social animals, and to deprive them of that, even for a short time can be very distressing for them.

Rush - One main reason I try and steer clear of the 'Alpha roll' is due to the puppy learning to fight back. I never want to teach my puppy to get into a battle of physical force because I know (as they get older) if they wanted to, they would win.

I have sadly known a few dogs who have been pts after the owners tried these methods, the dogs went into 'freeze' mode and the owners, thinking the dogs had 'calmed' allowed the dog up, only to be severely bitten.

In my personal observation of "alpha rolls", only puppies are sometimes forcibly "rolled" by siblings and perhaps the mother and nobody is worse off.

When adults, when I observe rolls, often times it is without physical force - in this case I mean that the dog already recognizes the status of some other dog or some other human. For example, my 3 year old female will roll herself when my 13 year old male is upset with her, without him touching her at all. And when my boyfriend is very upset with the dogs sometimes, they will roll over by themselves.. :lol: But we have never rolled the dogs as a method of punishment or to teach them anything.. they do this out of instinct.

However, on the other hand when I see forcible rolls, like sometimes in the dog park between stranger dogs, oftentimes fights will break out.

Because as Tassle said, I don't wish to get into a physical fight with my dogs, I avoid rolling them because I feel that there are alternative, non-physical methods of training for the same goal.

If I wanted to simulate some idea of "how a dog pack works", then I accept that when a dog is forcibly rolled, it can respond by biting or fighting back, as that is what I observe between dogs.

That's just my opinion. :)

i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult :) too risky

Then what's the point in asking questions if you know the best answers? :shock: It's your pup and you can raise it as you wish. :)

Im using forced methods at minimum and im not experienced, I follow advices(specially from breeder-logical if i got him there:p) and must say as already 2 times before that he is really gettin better, his biting has reduced even more now, he doesnt even attack anymore my..hm..the word..shoes for in house lets say:) which has some things like hairs which he loved to bite..His crying has reduced, also he stopped crying in car(unless he wants to go to toilet) and when i put him in trunk he sits and waits without need to say it anymore instead of trying to escape and jump out.. And more things.. So i think im not doing it bad but also i cant say i dont do mistakes, we learn all the time right? Tassle one question-Did you say you hide things that pup shouldnt chew and when you forbid it? Becouse to me that seems he wouldnt understand it, and if you mistakenly leave something in reach it would go for it..Hope you said it, im currently typing on my phone :) cant see as good as on computer.. So have a nice day everyone

Im asking to see what others think and to see if i do right or wrong.. And because im unexperienced.. And also more methods more i can try and see what works best and also see if you guys think that methods are good or possibly risky as you ppl were replaying for roll.. And being told something doesnt mean its still best, so more research and opinions is easier to see what is true and working for most ppl and what not..

In Which case I feel your approach is wrong. Getting into confrontational situations with dogs is not good IME.

However - I also feel it can be very dangerous to seek advice from too many different avenues. By trying out too many methods - you are liable to confuse your pup and yourself. Choose an approach and stick with it.

their should not be any fights ! let alone 'winning' that is a very sad attitude to have imo.

you need to bond,teach and guide ..not alpha roll and fight :cry:

imo your pup will loose his trust in you...and trust is everything imo.

So how would pup know thats wrong when he would attack as i wrote last time if i just walk away? And it didnt happen again..he was trying in some cases but also stopped quickly..And that was ment for 'fight'..Its breeders opinion i should finish, win always so he will understand and stop trying with time.. Otherwise it could happen when he will be grown up..I dont want to stay without my hand:) But i repeat..This are rare cases and rarly needed to do something about it..What i use mostly everyday is positive reinforcement or no! for unallowed and when no is ignored i redirect him/his attention.. Tassle, can you say in other words what u ment with contraversal... ? Thanks

confrontional sorry :)

Confrontational means that there is a challenge there somewhere, usually the owner is challenging the dog (for example -to remove something off him he wishes to keep). If the owner attempts to take this by force (physically removing the item from the dog, the dog will often attempt to protect the item, you would then be in a confrontational situation.

I hope this makes it clearer for you.

Rush, the reason why I don't see a need to tell the puppy he did something wrong for "attacking" you was because I don't think that at just a few weeks old a dog is developed enough to display true aggression. Perhaps it was over enthusiastic playing? In such a case, wouldn't it be better to show the puppy what appropriate play is instead of rolling him?

In regards to chewing inappropriate things - I agree with the idea that you simply don't leave things you don't want chewed, out. You can't expect dogs to generalize "things not to chew" to include many things you didn't specifically say "not to chew" to. You can tell a dog not to chew this shoe, but it doesn't mean not to chew the other one, nor does it mean NEVER to chew this shoe, just not to chew it right this moment cause you said so. Nor does that mean not to chew the wall, closet, tree branches, etc.

You CAN however, easily tell the dog what IS ok to chew up, which is limited to just a few toys, normally :)

Of course there are many different schools of thinking when it comes to dog behaviors and training though!

Tassle i understand now thanks, but how do you remove the thing from the dog what he wants to keep and he shouldn't? And let him know not to behave that way? For now there was no bigger problems with taking things excapt one bone my father gave him outside.. I try to take toys and things he can play with to see if he is ok and then immediately give him back and pet him ;)

I can't say if it was true agression, but it looked like so becouse his attention was at something else and he didn't want to be disturbed or something ? :-) But anyway i think he got a lection, and i can't just go playing with him at that state because then he will continue this behavior..But very soon after calming him down in one or another way we go on normally:).. Another point was that i was ready to go for walk with him and if i would for example leave him alone there on backyard he would probably stay there(We have 2 more dogs-but sadly the oldest is 14 it's GSD and he hardly walks, hears almost nothing, sees bad..we are hardly preparing to finish suffering:/ Another is 6month Akita and czw likes to crowl under the door outside to him :-P).. And it was enough to get my hand near him to trigger his reactions.
I just need to exhaust him on longer walks or dog plays then he is really great behaving :-P

It's also good that he has special priorities at dogschool for begginers:p, last time we stayed for 2 rounds of dogs to play and run around and no training..He is too young for that and planty of time, but i train him myself without "rough" methods they use there as pulling him like a toy to teach to walk "heel" for example, hope it's right word..And he is getting it pretty good, also often after some walking offleash he starts to walk very near and at the point he walks as i want i tell him he is good and repeat command some time, and sometimes i give him praise. I see big progres from beggining he was jumping between legs and mistakenly got few kicks that way.

Now i have to go to sleep, 5hours left..

I swap or distract.

Some dogs learn to gain attention by stealing or chewing the wrong thing - remembering that even negative attention is better than being ignored - it is better to distract the dog away and look at a solution to prevent the dog from being able to do the action again, or teach a command for the dog to leave (It will always come back to training the dog in controlled situations).

I will never take something from a puppy just because, I will always swap - teaching him that it is good for me to be around and it is a nice thing for him to give it up to me as opposed to taking something away.

If it a really high value (the only thing my boy growled about was a lamb breast, which was of course very high value), I try and ensure I have something equally good or I distract away, going to a different room, playing with a toy, throwing some food about.
Possession is a funny thing with dogs - they are well within their rights (from their point of view) to protect that. I have no problems with dogs growling, it is a warning system and I do not want to get rid of that, it tells me the dog is not happy for some reason, IMO, it is my job to find the reason and teach the dog that it can trust me.

When Zeff growled (when I went near him eating - I had not attempted to take it away), the next time, I cut some strips off and as he was eating, I offered him another bot from my hand, then the next bit etc, until (after about 3 gos) he was fine with me walking about and would even give up the item without argument, Even a high value thing like a dead rabbit.

CzW puppy meets wolfs :-)
 

CzW pup meets eurasian wolfs, they were really interested in each other :-)
I think it was great idea to take him to a zoo and he wasn't afraid of anything for excaption of my friends labrador who was afraid of elephant pretty much :-)

It was also great thing that he didn't try to get on other side of fances to other animals(Somewhere fences were very small, or also made so he could just crowl under.

Have fun everyone!