Anyone have experience with a purebred wolf?
 

Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone on this board has any experience raising and living with a purebred wolf? There is a breeder in TX http://www.freewebs.com/wolfhavenspiritofthepast/ who breeds pure wolves for companions.
As an Ethologist, I have always wanted to have a wolf or coyote as a companion - to see the "raw" canine nature - to study them in my own environment.
The above breeder has several different strains that she breeds, all of them with different temperament characteristics. Of them, I am inclined towards the McKenzie Valley strain. I am not so interested in a hybrid, nor am I interested in breeding (I would spay/neuter at maturity) - I just want to experience living with a real wolf...

Hey there,
I almost never post here but when I saw this post and I had to sign in to write a reply! Please stay FAR, FAR away from this breeder! They are very well known all through the ("american") wolfdog world as being some of the worst for misrepresentation and flat out lies. They certainly do not breed pure wolves, from the very few rather blurry pictures they put up of their dogs it's painfully obvious that they are low contents or dogs, most of all them. Here you can see them http://www.freewebs.com/wolfhavenspi...hourwolves.htm they are definitely a mix of malamute/husky/GSD and who knows what else but certainly very little if any wolf.
They also have some very unlikely claims...here are some quotes.
"The wolf is the lion of the North. They are called that because they are descendants from the same lineage as lions.
Their eyes are that of a lion brown color and a thick mane runs around their neck and down their back. Females have shorter hair than males.
They also have a cat-like bone structure. They can collapse and dislocate their joints.

They can "collapse and dislocate their joints"??? And from the same lineage as lions....I have no idea where these ideas are coming from but I see no common sense. Anyway I would please advise to stay away from these breeders. If you actually want a pure wolf (and please, think it through carefully...all the facts on that website are completely fabricated) please find another more responsible breeder.

Thank you so much for your reply. My only link to the american wolfdog community is through this more international site - I have a vlcak...
I do agree some of the claims are a little much...!!!
I am having a difficult time finding pure wolf breeders to even converse with let alone purchase a pup from - would love any guidance you could give me.
And yes, I have been thinking long and hard - for many years - probably since I first got involved in Animal Behavior studies in college and studied the various wild canines (my 1993 BA major was Animal Behavior), about bringing a pure wolf into my life.
I am in no rush - it would likely be a few years at least before I brought a wolf pup into my home, but I would like to find a responsible pure wolf breeder I could develop a mentor-type relationship with who I would eventually purchase a pup from. I am in no way interested in breeding wolves myself, so unless keeping the animal intact was required by the breeder, he (I would prefer a male) would be neutered at maturity.
I am on Disability and only work part-time, so I do have the time to devote to the intense relationship requirements - and I have perhaps a different understanding of them than the average joe...
Again, thank you and if you have some contacts or guidance for me, I would greatly appreciate it.

Than go do it in the wild, where they behave natural ;)

And if you really love wolves do not get one for your own good :(

Best regards / Mikael

:thumbs !!! ;-)

This is just what I also wanted to write.
I am not sure about USA, but in most of countries in Europe it is illegal to keep a wild creature at home.
This summer one family contacted me to ask what to do with a little sparrow, who was found out of it's nest - I contacted the ornitologist's organization, so they told that in fact they even had no right to take the sparrow home!

And people so easily take wild animals as wolves and make them their pets - this is not "love for wolves" this is "look how cool I am", nothing more.

I know this - I have similar feelings about ravens, a girl I know owns one, she found it injured. Amazingly interesting bird, very very intelectual (as much as I've read, more than even the big parrots), so I keep dreaming about also having one. But I am not afraid to admit it is an ego thing - it is interesting and fun for ME, also - haha - this looks cool, doesn't it? A lady with a "wolf" and a real raven :D Still this is not a reason to start looking for a raven...

I totally agree and I have experience with living with several adult wolves.

For me private keeping of a wolf like you plan to do it is pure egoism and abuse of an animal.
Even if you would have the money and space to keep him in an appropriate enclosure, is thinking of keeping one and thinking to be able to compensate the companionship of another wolf for him abusive and naive, even your wolfdogs can´t compensate.

Sorry for those rude words but if you have been involved in behaviour studies worth this name you should know better.


But don´t worry, you will get more than enough PMs of at least one member here..

Ina

Just a fake !
 

Hello and best wishes for new year 2011 to everyone here first of all !

As "Kootenay" has told here before it´s obvious that this "breeder" has not wolves but definitely dog- mixes, may be with more or less wolf-blood...

You can see on the different photos without any doubt that these animals are no pure wolves.

And at last i agree to the opinion of all the other posters here before:

It is complete nonsense trying to keep a wolf as a pet !

I´m wondering about that this is need to be told !

Best greetings ,

Uli alias Silvester from Germany

Agree 100%!!!

Lunas Mom, you've probably realized that there is a lot of controversy going on here, people argue, disagree, confront each other, have conflicting interests, etc.

But when MOST forum members, who normally have very different opinions agree on something it's very meaningful. Please, take this aspect under very careful consideration. :wolf

' Responsible' breeders of pure wolves would work to preserve the numbers in the wild, not make them for pet or even experimental private keeping.

I agree with Ina and for the life of me, can't understand who would look at that site (I've seen them before) and not just laugh.. I truly think that those people have mental problems.

Besides, even if they were the real thing, I would never condone the keeping of some critically endangered animals like the Mexican wolf as a personal pet project...

Hi,

since you called yourself an "ethologist" several times you better should donate your energy and money in projects like this

/www.defenders.org/

rather than taking even in consideration buying a wolf from people like this so called breeder.
By the way, as an ethologist you should know that you cannot breed not domesticated animals like wolves and other species.
"Breeding" is a sign of domestication.
Sorry for my open words, but I'm fed up with people like for example another "famous" user here, telling that you can keep wolves or wolf hybrids as pets.

Michael

is there such a thing :?

if ,as you say,you had more of an understanding of them ,why on earth would you want one as a pet?

also,without meaning to offend you in anyway... you also advocate pinch collars etc whilst training your dogs? what tool would you decide to use to 'control' your 'pet wolf'?
of course a lot of people dream of living with a wolf...and imo it should stay just that, a dream...enjoy your csv and learn from them :-)

happy new year all :-)

If I had enough money, I would rather buy land where wild wolves could live their own life undisturbed by the activity of people. As that is not likely to come to pass, I buy trees instead. There is this organisation in Slovakia, which is buying land in Eastern Slovakia in Cergov mountains and which has build a private reservation there. By buying a tree, you help buy more land, where the wood is not cut and where animals can live freely and not hunted. Wolves live there too, so although I don't own a wolf, I own a piece of land where it can live its life. I would recommend everybody to find a similar organisation in his/her own country - or any other country and donate some money or efforts in this kind of direction. It is much better for the wolves than trying to own one.

Excellent ide :klatsch

Very best regards / Mikael

Happy New Year to you all!!!

Family Eichhorn, thank you very much, that you always think at me. I must made a big impression in your life, that you can not live without me. Reading by the way two threads and in both two, between the lines I am mentioned. Thanks for keeping me alive, hahaha!

Luna´s Mom, please do not be angry, but it seems indeed that you do not know a lot about wolves... Otherwise you would have seen immediately that the breeder you did link is a dreamer. These animals are dogs, maybe low contents but never ever pure wolves. Please read these two links (in the first link, Jimmy put another link to his own experiences) and think about if you could manage these experiences. And of course never have a wolf alone, he or she always needs a partner!

About winter wolf syndrom/seasonale aggression

http://www.wolfdogforum.com/forum/vi...&t=101&start=0

and aboout the same theme please scroll down to 6th of july 2008, but 7th of nov 2008 is interesting too.

http://awolfadventure.blogspot.com/


Don´t you live in Florida, when I do remember right, Luna´s mom? You are allowed to have wolfdogs F 1 75 % max.

Here are the laws in for the USA: http://www.hybridlaw.com/

Have a nice year

Christian

I have studied them in the wild - Brrrr! Very cold environments. Don't worry, this is NOT, I repeat, NOT something I am planning to do in the near future, nor would I collect a wolf into my environment without properly preparing for the best, most enriched, life able to be provided.
Actually, I would much prefer a coyote to study (I have done that in the wild, too), all things considered.
My desire to keep, interact with and study a real wolf in a captive environment is to try to see how and where the wild behaviors were either suppressed or exploited due to human intervention. I am not interested in keeping an animal for my own personal pleasure, but more for personal study - the desire to see what the "base" animal of our domesticated dog is really like - that's why I am NOT interested in any hybrid. I want to see the intelligence, reasoning capabilty, natural aptitudes really are in our dogs' ancestor.
THis is not something I would take on lightly - and at this stage of my life, I do not have to room to be able to take on a wolf properly (my interest in this subject has been a part of my life since I studied them in the wild in 1992).
I am glad my comments brought about such discussion - my first step will likely be to volunteer at a wolf refuge at some point, before I decide to actually take on one for myself.
Where I live now, we recently found coyotes have extended their southern range to Coral Springs, FL - so I am actually considering finding the den and studying them here in their new natural environment - suburban/urban communities. The city of Chicago even employs them as ratters in the downtown area, and as I said before, I am more attracted to them as a species of interest as they are so incredibly intelligent and adaptable....

A coyote is not a wolf!!!!

A wolf in capitivity is not a wolf in the wild!!!

A "hybrid" is not so much different to a wolf or what do you think is a F 1 90 %? It is always a matter of genes. I know F 2 which are like dogs and I know F 4 who are like wolf. So laws are funny because they have nothing in common with genes. Modern scientific did not make their "pawz" in actual laws. So they are werth nothing!

Have fun.

Christian

Lunas Mom, but today's wolves are not ancestors of dogs. They evolved from the same ancestors, under the influence of their respective habitats, which included men, for the wolves usually as competitors or even as hunters. And todays populations of wolves are mostly small scraps that remained after centuries-long pressure of men trying to completely abolish them. Last couple of centuries, the selection on wolves was very hard, especially on their behavior.

What are you talking about Saschia? In italy for example are about 1.000 wolves and about 1.000.000 wild living dogs. Some of the wolves mixe together with some dogs and these hybrids live in the villages and with people! And some of them recrosses with wolves again. That is one reason why in italy live about 250 black wolves. You know this research from 2008 that the black color in wolves come from dogs?

In spain is the same, in greece, slovenia and bulgary.

That is nature!!!!

And? Do you want to say that those wolves are the same as there were before dogs were domesticated?

The black color in wolves is from dogs - also in North Americas. The change is very old and probably origined independently a couple of times. So you actually cannot say that it did not originate in wolves too, but that was not the meaning of my previous post. The meaning was that you will never get to know the behavior of dog's ancestor from the behavior of recent, captured wolves. Not that is not a valid interest, but my opinion is, if someone wants to study wolves or coyotes in capture, one should be a part of a project, and not torment one wolf (or even a couple) by conditions a single human being is able to provide. There are too many wolves living in enclosures to add to that number.

The problem stays the same: One wolf, what life would be able to be provided. I don´t expect land in Florida and even more important fences much cheaper than in Germany. The costs for the wolf enclosure here have been around 200 000 $, as far as I remember only the fence.
But this research has already been done in the past and is going on at the moment. In your country one of the names is Ray Coppinger, though he is more in dogs but they do this studies at his institute and they also did those studies on Coyotes.
So if you want to do all this again with one wolf it is for your own pleasure and nothing else.
As far as I can oversee the situation this is the best way to go in your country as there are a lot of private raised wolves in refuges or shelters.
Better to study them there or get two of one of those places than buying one from a so called breeder.

And as Sashia already wrote you will still not see the original type of wolf from over at least 15 000 years ago.

Ina

Yes, coyotes are not wolves. I was mentioning that I like coyotes and am interested in studying them.
And genetics tell us that today's domestic dogs ARE descended from wolves - they are basically genetically-manipulated, neo-natized Eurasian wolves. In fact, there is no genetic way to distinguish wolves and dogs, which is why their scientific classification is now CANIS LUPUS FAMILIARIS.
Also WRONG that there is "no difference" between a hybrid (any content) and a pure wolf. Because we do not know the EXACT modes of inheritance for genetics, if it has "dog" genetics - however small - it is not necessarily going to be just like a "pure" wolf. I am not interested in dealing with dog genetics when it comes to studying behavior.
And for those interested in furthering their understanding of genetic manipulation... look up the Balyeav fox experiments.... wild foxes raised for their fur and in just a couple of generations where the breeder selected for "tameness" and suddenly they were being born with patchy fur, curled tails and droopy ears - all WILD fox genetics - but nothing like the original foxes trapped in the wild for the experiment. Part of why I want to study the "original" material.
I find it interesting how polarizing this discussion is for people - it shows a passionate love of the species. That is also a large part of why I am interested in studying them. Interesting that I do not see anyone here protesting the other people who study the species... and we have learned a great deal recently from several captive wolf studies (I believe it was a German or Swiss University conducting the behavioral studies) regarding their problem-solving abilities, etc. My interest is in furthering knowledge in just that venue, so that we not only learn more out Canis lupus lupus but also canis lupus familiaris...

The difference is that as a university or other large organization, they theoretically have more resources than a single person does in conducting useful research, both in contacts and financial resources.

And with the backing of a university, discoveries and observations are more acceptable, more able to be useful, believable, and verifiable.. not merely one person's experience and and observations. Unless a person has had a long and storied reputation (say someone like Diane Fossey or Jane Goodall, and even their methodology is contested), personal observation is not likely meaningful to the body of knowledge in general. ..

I don't protest projects, because I know that to get a grant for it, you need to prove that the animals will not suffer by your research. Ditto for publishing - no self-respecting opublisher would accept paper where accordance to animal handling practices was not stated. I would oppose any individualistic project that would use wolves from commercial breeders.

And before you start arguing with people that did behavior research on their own wolf packs, than my argument is - 1. it is a pack, not individual wolf, 2. if the wolves were bred (produced) for the purpose then I cannot accept it as correct practice.

I would strongly recommend you to join a shelter or refugee or things like that, you'll have my moral support and a piece of envy too ;o)

Now I am going to study the ontogeny of social behavior in my very own pack of Descendants of Wolves (that's the English translation of my kennel name for those here who don't speak Slovak) ;o) Brown barked at me yesterday and succeeded to howl puppy-style today.

As I stated in an earlier post, my first step is volunteering at a refuge. I have no desire to get in over my head. Remember, this has been something I have been wanting to do for almost 2 decades...
And the primatologists mentioned (Fossey, et al) who did their ground-breaking research BECAME well-respected AFTER they decided to say "screw it" to the non-believers and just did as they felt right - something that I may do in the future.
It seems those scientific mavericks have brought a lot to the study of Ethology, so who is to say that I could not? Simply because I am not "known" or "funded" right now? And simply because the universities get funding, does NOT mean they are any better - or do anything more humanely - that I would - I have seen it before.
I have followed very talented dog trainers who have specifically learned training through their interaction and understanding of wolf behavior - on a personal level. Bashkim Dibra and his wolf Mariah come to mind. I feel he brought a lot to dog training through his knowledge, and if I were able to do the same, it would be more than woth it. Jeez, it would be more than worth it for me to have that experience, whether I write a book or not...
Just because I am not part of a university (though perhaps I could see if UFL would mind my doing a doctorate on the subject) does not mean I should be barred from learning this way simply because it is less "acceptable" to society?
As I had mentioned before, I am also interested in studying coyote behavior - I am not looking for funding to go and research them in the field - does it make my observing them wrong? Or less acceptable? And to whom? Again, I am not interested in reproducing the results in a lab - Ethologists don't do that, but they trust each other's research - even though most hard-core scientists would consider it anecdotal. Does that make it less valuable?
I read "anecdotal" stuff all the time - one of my favorite books is about Charley the coyote (Shreve Stockton's book The Daily Coyote) as well as Farley Mowat's Never Cry Wolf. Are they "science"? Not really. They are excellent insights into ethological studies of the species - even if they aren't reproducible, they are no doubt vauable to those interested in behavior... who is to say I wouldn't be the next Farley Mowat? We all start somewhere...

Fossey and Goodall never attempted to contribute to the captive population of their chosen studies. Their studies were done at national parks or other similar locales and they actively worked to STOP the production of captive gorillas/chimps, not contribute to it. ..their studies was and always has been founded on the principles of observing and protecting them as they are in the wild...

And yes, funding is a huge part of the equation...

I am not looking to add to the local population either, though one of the things that other ethologists have discussed with me is how my study could positively impact the wild wolf's plight with habitat loss as well as overall health studies.
For istance I did an involved project for my degree about rehabilitating the FL Alligator - part of the study involved behavior of the species (it ended up not to be a successful venue as alligators relocated even thousands of miles away will eventually return to their home ponds) - with wolves, we have a serious issue of inability to adapt to human "pressure" in an environment. And what better way to study this that to study the intimate behavior?
Another thing is nutrition and evnironmental impact on immunity and orthopedics. I don't know of anyone who feeds raw (they tout mimicing natural diet, which, in most cases is not accurate as dogs evolved eating our refuse, not organic, pristine cuts of meat and fresh veggies) who has any studies on how "good" (or bad) joints in the wild population are. They always say "wolves don't get HD" - no - because they die at like 5 years old in the wild... but there are no x-rays backing this up that I have ever seen.
So if the wild wolves are my control group, my own wolf would be the study subject.
Again, my plan is to volunteer first - then perhaps I can convince the refuge and UFL to get involved in a study - maybe I will even find a dog food company to sponsor it, but I would HAVE to start with a "clean slate" at some point. I also would like to have another ethologist or two to help out, as I do not want my observations skewed, but seconded or refuted by others involved in the study.
Perhaps we will find something no one else has uncovered - that's what the purpose is - perhaps wolves, like humans, base mate choice on genetics and scent - or maybe it's courtship behaviors or simply geography - no one knows. And even simple studies like this can often be applied to other mammals...
And who knows, perhaps just this sort of study will help wild wolves...
For instance, Sea World's captive Penguin population were not breeding until some "genius" pointed out that their light phase in the enclosure was NORTHERN and not Southern, and when they changed it, the birds began breeding - all from one scientist who studied penguin breeding and the photoperiod...
This likely will be a plan of the future - not any time soon. In the meantime I am quite happy studying the behavior I see in my vlcak. She is not quite "dog" but not "wolf" either and I have been keeping detailed records on her behavior. Not sure what, if any, purpose this will have in the future, but it satisfies my desire to unravel the mystery of how the dog evolved from the wolf, and certainly adds to my dog-training experience and communication. And maybe someday to a bigger picture.

Apart from everything else is it a simple fact, that studies on one wolf or one or two dogs are of no value for any scientific approach as they show the behaviour of this one individual and nothing else. Additional this one individual will be extremely influenced by humans what will make the results even more questionable.
So this will not be science but simple personal learning and interest of one or some more persons.

And meaning absolutely no offense but just having your own safety in mind: If the way you walk and move on the herding videos is the normal way you walk and not due to momentary health status, are you not save around adult handraised wolves if you have direct contact and the wolf is socialised very well.
You might be alright with only one individual taking safety precautions but this would also mean you couldn´t interact as free as you intend.

That site is not up to date Christian, the laws in Flor. changed last year (2010) this is now what the law states for Florida.

"Hybrids resulting
from the cross between wildlife and domestic animal, which are substantially
similar in size, characteristics and behavior so as to be indistinguishable
from the wild animal shall be regulated as wildlife at the higher and more
restricted class of the wild parent."

Yes, I live in FL, and as I stated before, I would have to change my living situation in order to accomodate a wolf. If I stayed in FL, I would need a wildlife possession permit, but again, this is something further out in the future.
I disagree completely regarding your opinion that I wouldn't learn anything applicable if only interacting with one wolf. My study parameters are ethological, not traditional laboratory parameters. Many ethologists have made breakthrough studies utilizing interactions with only one or a few members of a species - one that comes to mind instantly is Alex the African Grey parrot and Irene Pepperberg - a bird that she purchased at a pet store and has now changed the idea of learning and cognition - in both birds, and in some cases her studies have been applied to early learning in children. It often takes someone with their own convictions to go ahead and just do it - rather than listen to the naysayers who end up actually benefitting from such maverick studies.
I would urge people unfamiliar with studies such as these to perhaps investigate them before passing judgment on a subject they know nothing about. If it weren't for the Pepperberg, Fossey, et al, studies - people who likely got the same (if not more) flak about their studies than I am on this topic - we would not have their enlightening and groundbreaking knowledge and the world would be a little less bright...

I am familiar with Pepperberg's work with her African Grey.

It seems that your mind is made up anyway, so it really doesn't make sense to point out huge differences in approach when you try to compare yourself to Fossey or Pepperberg, though..

I am no Pepperberg or Fossey, my point is simply that there are people making judgments without understanding ethology studies or the parameters of said study.
It seems much of the judgment is coming from a personal and emotional views - and everyone is welcome to their opinions, of course. Much of the science we rely on today was conducted against popular views... sheesh, if it weren't for maverick scientists, we would likely still be thinking frogs spontaneously erupted out of mud in the spring and that our humors needed to be balance in order to eradicate disease.
My actual intent in starting this thread was to gather information from anyone on this board who had/has experience with pure wolves. I was looking for information on their experiences and interactions with the species - in whatever environment - whether captive or wild, so that I could begin to gather information for my future behavioral studies.
My mind is not made up regarding acquiring a wolf in the future - it may end up being too big a commitment - that remains to be seen...

I don't mean to give you flak as you named it, and actually I know that YOU would benefit hugely from the study of even single wolf, even we might. My concern is about the wolf, if the cost/benefit is worth it. And by cost I mean the difference of the life of that wolf with you versus in a shelter/refugee/whatever else.

I agree totally about the cost/benefit of the study vs. the quality of life for the wolf. That is one reason I have not gone out and gotten a wolf in the last 18 or so years I have wanted to do so. I want to be 100% sure I can committ totally to the animal and it's needs - for it's entire life.
On a personal level I see no difference between a refuge and any other "captive" situation like a zoo. No, it isn't like being in the wild. On the flipside, as a wildlife rehabber, many higher-intelligence animals, once raised with humans, cannot be successfully released back into the wild, so this animal would have to stay in a captive environment.
As an ethologist, part of my study would be enriching the animal's environment to preserve a happy animal. I do that with all of my own companion animals, too.

Well, I would consider life with a pack more interesting than life with a person, for a wolf at least. But I'll leave the counting of costs/benefits up to you, it will be, after all, your responsibility.

As I wrote before do we have experiences with pure wolves and we additional know a lot of those people doing the studies you are interested in personally, some of them became friends. And this too was the reason for our reactions, inclusive the advice considering your own safety. We also know the scientific work of those people and their opinion considering how it should be done correctly. There is also still actual research going on in several places on this matter on captive wolves. None of them is keeping only one and none would see this as necessary or right, seen from ethical points of view. As you can be a proper social partner for a dog but never a proper social partner for a wolf, no matter how good the environment is.

I also did understand your first question as where to get a wolf from and obviously I wasn´t the only one.

Ina

Happy new year to everybody!

Lunas Mom, I've read all this topic again and I still get a strong feeling that you want to keep a real wolf, purely to fulfill a personal naive dream, legitimized by the artificially-made magic words: “ethologist” and “study purposes”. I find it bizarre that you're referring to a marginal site, where a lot of nonsense and fairytales are sold and where the animals shown, just being mixes. I see no wolf. If you have studied wolves and coyotes, one may expect a greater knowledge. As you may encounter unexpected criticism, the more you emphasize the educational aspect, this under the cloak of a proclaimed status of “ethologist”.

This all reminds me to an old topic: Looking for a nice Male CsV pup to import (roughly translated into: "where can I get a CsV as soon as possible"?), in which you were looking for a CsV as soon as possible for a friend who apparently barely knew the race. Despite various advices to better orient herself and not to act impulsively, the import followed two weeks later! I see similarities regarding the compulsive aspect herein in full. Aside: how's Pollux? Is he still at your girlfriends place or is he now under your care given the fact that you've mentioned it in your "about me section"? I see at your site that he's for sale. Was your girlfriend tired of him so fast?

I'm also very attracted to wolves and the part which is still in our CsV's. I can understand your dream somewhere but you should conclude that it is madness. Luna’s Mom, leave this egocentric idea I would say. It will become a drama and at the end, the animal will be the victim.

Robbert