Ugly feminine males...
 

There was similar topic some time ago... But I would like to refresh it....with a new post showing how fals are the "good advices" of some "experts".... :lol:


Long time ago I planned first litter of Jolly. I choosed a Slovak male for her... After I told about my plans one of the Czech "gurus" I heard that it is totally stupid idea, that the dog is ugly, with bad weak bones and EXTREMLY femine expresion. Simply said: it is a horrible, untypical CzW male...

Of course I didn't paid a lot attention to this words... Unfortunately the dog died before I was able to use him (later I covered my female with his son).

But back to the topic - last week Pavol uploaded some photos if this dog. I will show them to you so you can personally see how far is in some cases the reality from this what some so called "experts" are saying...

Here is the "ugly feminine" CzW male:

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/1/...81-7077863.jpg

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/1/...83-3909690.jpg

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/1/...83-3740857.jpg

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/1/...82-7036725.jpg

wow, he´s beautiful!!! such nice head! :shock:

from the foto he looks very nice, not weak at all, specially in pic where he runs.
And of course wonderful head (from pics)
Can we know who he is? :lol:

I agree to all three posts before ... for my opinion he´s on this pictures an excellent looking dog.

With best greetings from Germany

Not very hard to find. :p http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1150

Nice head, but the body is femine! No wolf would look like this...

Christian

Wonderfull dog, nice bones strong but wolfish, nice body, nice head, long legs and masculine!

We are talking about EUROPEAN Wolves. Not Canadian or American... :lol:

I saw MANY REAL EUROPEAN Wolves looking like this.... PURE Wolves... :lol:

You know what - when I was a child I didn't believe there can be black and white wolves. Later I realizedthat there are... But such Wolves even now do not look WOLFISH for me... No EUROPEAN WOLF 'would look like this'....:lol:

Bux was the best csw what I have ever seen !

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4905/norbertklein.jpg
Karpathian wolf male, in winter coat
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2028/wlfemnnl.jpg
both males, both wintercoat
[IMG]file:///C:/DOKUME%7E1/Ina/LOKALE%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/../pics...82-7036725.jpg

Bux in sommercoat

For me for a wolfdog that is close enough, but there are experts and "experts":lol:

Ina

Really, incredible Bux. :)

It is not hard to do in a similar manner of inbreeding to further "Bux"
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/p1150-5.html

I saw him personaly at these events, and my impression of him was "inconsistent."
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/shows/221.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/shows/73.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/shows/86.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/shows/201.html

Lovely type. But not act never as a truly healthy individual. And this is important for me. We breed long-lasting beautiful and powerful animals or dogs for disposable? I mean " show dogs " ?
I do not know how many lived Bux, not has many descendants. But some of his grandchildren is possible to find and so be "breeding" !

Good luck

Witch Soukupová ;-)

Hmmmm, Margo here is one of the "experts" of the breed :lol:

But sorry to say, it is not a wolf Christian ;) It´s a dog and a recognised dogbreed ;-) :lol:

This is one of my favorite CsV at the moment and I do not think he looks like a wolf neither ;-) but still he is a nice looking dog !!!

http://forumbilder.se/images/e64201064851Pad68.jpg

Best regards / Mikael

dog with bitch type head
 

hey maybe you should go to speck savers?????? the first photo in this thread of the CWS looks very very like a bitch, not an ugly dog by any means but come on have a look at photos of males on this site then look at this dog, maybe people dont want to speak against sender of the post?///// I have bred dogs for 35yrs and before i get all the usual feedback from all the usual people on the site i do know that a male dogs head should look like a male this dogs head definately does not. He is also fine of bone,,,,,

Hi, me too , i like this dog !!!!!

Who knows how old was Bux on fotos? I think it is important to know it if we want write some our view.:roll:

;) this is the question an expert will ask. As far as I know still younger than 4 what means for a Slovakian male not fully developed.
As everybody knowing the breed out of this times will remember, did the dogs out of this kennel live under incredible circumstances only a very healthy and a very lucky dog could survive, they are somehow a good example that imbreeding isn´t such a big problem for a short period when the dogs you breed with are healthy and the selection is very hard. Some of the low imbreeding dogs out of this time on the other side show that a low imbreeding factor isn´t the garantee for healthy dogs if this is the only factor you care for.
As far as I remember some of the dogs from this breeder had to be rescued in the Czech republic out of the ground of a friend of the breeder, living all of them together in a big house, dead dogs lying amongst the living. I am not 100% sure if this have been Krotkovsky´s dogs, Pavel was the one who published the story of those dogs. But for sure many dogs of this breeder of this time simply disappeared and they didn´t simply dye of normal health problems.

No dog out of such circumstances will present himself well on occasions like an exhibition.
If we simply take a look on the first link we will find as the winners of this show those dogs
best male: http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d81.html

I never saw a European Wolf looking like that and being that heavy.
We know from other breeds that selecting on a heavy type will automatically bring health problems, like everything leaving the wolf model.

But even if we leave all of this out of mind it is a good example because breeding is not just mating the best of shows or the best dogs of this year. Even if the dog may have been too light (still in my opinion better for the dog than too heavy) it would have been a perfect match for a bitch with not so long legs, a bit too heavy bones, a broad chest, long ears etc. And in such cases an "outcross" on a highly inbred but healthy male may give great benefit to a line.
And a good breeder and expert is able to see the potential of a dog even if it doesn´t present him well on occasions like exhibitions and knows that you can not really judge from photos.

But anyway, it is a dog not a wolf and all real experts that have seen him I know say without doubt that it was one of the best males they ever saw if not the best.

Ina

Originally posted by Ina:

"best male: http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d81.html

I never saw a European Wolf looking like that and being that heavy.
We know from other breeds that selecting on a heavy type will automatically bring health problems, like everything leaving the wolf model.

But even if we leave all of this out of mind it is a good example because breeding is not just mating the best of shows or the best dogs of this year. Even if the dog may have been too light (still in my opinion better for the dog than too heavy) it would have been a perfect match for a bitch with not so long legs, a bit too heavy bones, a broad chest, long ears etc. And in such cases an "outcross" on a highly inbred but healthy male may give great benefit to a line.
And a good breeder and expert is able to see the potential of a dog even if it doesn´t present him well on occasions like exhibitions and knows that you can not really judge from photos."

I completely have the same meaning to this, especially to the sentence of Ina what i have put in fat letters above !

This is very correct.

It depend on "what is a CzW MALE for you". 8) What is a STANDARD - "0" pooint on the scala.
If it is a male dog described int he standard as TYPICAL or a male which has heavy untypical head with wrinkles, hanging lips and eyelids and wrong proportions of the head.

YES, I agree with you that compared to some CzW males Bux is lookong like a female.
NO, "VERY MASCULINE" males are for sure not untypical representants for this breed. For me BUX is a nice Wolfdog, the heavy "VERY MASCULINE" males are just untypical. If you do not believe - compare theit look with the breed standard... :rock_3

Hmmmmmmmm
 

I think the problem is that people really do not read the standard at all or they interpret it the wrong way…This is a part of what the FCI standard say under GENERAL APPEARANCE :
"Movement, coat texture, colour of coat and mask, similar to the wolf."

As I read, it say "SIMILAR" and similar do not mean, has Exactly to look like a wolf !!!

And this is a part of what it say under Coat:
"COLOUR: Yellowish-gray to silver-gray with a charateristic light mask. Light hair also on the underside of the neck and the forechest. Dark gray colour with light mask is permissible."

Yes it say ".Dark gray colour with light mask is permissible."

Now I’m no expert on the standard nor the breed, but I have a feeling owners and breeders are over interpret how much CsV must be light in colour and look like a wolf !!!

Please add more info or correct me if i´m wrong…

But if they are to look exactly like a wolf, I have a feeling they are to look like the Carpatian Wolf :ehmmm

http://forumbilder.se/images/185201040753P7e3a.jpg
　
　
Very best regards / Mikael

Typical or untypical, masculin or feminin, for me Bux is my favorite type of wolfdog!

....absolut beautiful...

I would take him immediately as studdog!!!

Tanja

But not for Caya;), since he is more or less genetically identical with her grandfather Koro. And he's dead anyway.

Michael

Standard say too .. General appearance:
Firm type in constitution, more than a medium-sized, rectangular frame.
For me is very funny and sad at the same time that anybody tries to teach the one of creatos of the breed Mr. Hartl
how make correct judgemet and what is important. :shock:
Many people here have a problem with the determination of a constitutional type of dog.
Bux was dry constitutional type R1 - and this is considered acceptable - but not desirable extreme!
Constitutional type is not an end in itself! It combines not only the exterior, but also the psychological characteristics of a dog. Wolves live 16 to 18 years in captivity ... if " you " are think that: if the dog will live 8 years and all is OK, I have another view.
Bux is died. How many years?
Adon Irpruš is allive, still he is 15 years old!

Each can breed "type" what he likes. I not have problem accept other opinion I am no fanatic..(I am a Witch I know) ;-) but Standard is clear and the creators knew what they are doing.
In standard minimum height exist but no maximum...
Young Wolf shot died about 2 to 3 years old, December 2009 on the Slovak weighed 46 kg.
photo si here: http://zmolu.csvlcak.cz/displayimage...p&cat=-9&pos=0
Weight euroasian wolves (depending on the age ranges between 40 to 80 kg!)
Do not attempt here to create the illusion that the wolves have weak constitution!

Witch Soukupová

I know he´s dead...

anyway, it´s a pity!!!

Tanja

i dont run this male down, i give only my oppinion, but you have to admit lots of male dogs now being produced in southern parts of Europe and getting produced for glamour rather than working, and they are getting smaller in size with soft coats the males also becoming fine of bone, some strugling to make 58cm in hight, i have looked at hundreds of photos of CWS on this web site and private sites and there is a definate change comming about and there are lots of size differences in many dogs, they also have great difference in coats, i have seen this happen with lots of breeds over the last 35 yrs, i keep what i call extream photos of the CWS that difffer from the normal ones. they appear everywhere???/ i have read the breed standard, and i have attened many European shows and seen CWS with there tails so far between there legs and looking petrified, yet still winning honours, also i wonder why the change in standard regarding some missing teeth came about ha ha///

Monika dearest victim,

Adon Iprus didn´t have to live at Krotkovsky´s place and you steadily have problems to remember Major Rosik.
I know of offspring of Adon Iprus that didn´t reach age or quality of health of wolves, not to mention the exterieur problems (to prevent witch-gossip, Dak z Rosikova is said to have died of a turned stomach) and not so ideal HD-results. A very good example that to watch only the dog itself doesn´t say anything about it´s breeding quality. And again this is what breeding is about.
But I only took him for an example because you obviously judged him the excellent male on this exhibition, I didn´t want to discredit him, he simply is very unsimilar to an European wolf.

As it was mentioned several times do we discuss a breed of dog not wolves. But the standart clearly states that the ideal is a dog similar to an European wolf not a German Shepherd.
And there is an enormous range between much too heavy build dogs and a weak constitution, I can´t see any weak constitution in Bux and do work with European wolves (that normally don´t reach 80 kg if they are not fat) every day and as a vet can see the results of too heavy or too weak constitutions much too often. I see an athletic, elegant dog that surely had an excellent movement.

Ina

P.S. you shouldnt forget the word black in front of your new name!

As you can see on this homepage was Bux born 1994 in a Slovakian kennel and had a hight of 69 cm. None of the bonitated offspring was under the official height.

Ina

who mentioned anything about this dogs hieght ???

Absolutely always you pick from the text what's convenient.
There's not even talking about rough dogs or lymphatic type.
And certainly not about animals who are overweight! I'm talking about the weight of wolves in the wild than in the Zoo and the like.
And the Constitution is still something other than the Condition and you should know, sorry!: :(
The CSW is desirable solid - firm constitutional type!
Not rough or dry.
Exclusionary type is fine and lymphatic!

I think, was from Margo very stupid and sad to pull photos already dead dog and try to discuss over them.

I had never been judged him but I knew and saw him personaly.
He was judged others Šimáčková, Hartl, Jančík, Dora, Rosík Jr. ...


I am witch, for you surely...and I will stay witch, no problem.

Monika Soukupová

This is the dog this thread is about.

hi i would like to appologise for any comments i made regarding this dog, to both the breeder and the past owner, I had no idea this wolfdog was dead, very sorry Ronnie Winder u.k.

Next 'professional' and 'nice' comment from a FCI judge M. Soukupova.... :shock:

Do you mean it SERIOUS???? So from now it is forbidden to speak about ANY ancestors of our dogs because you say so.... Because ALL OF THEM A DEAD? Are you joking?

Forbidden??? Me like " Witch " can prohibit something HERE??? :o You can " freeze " Me when you want. Good joke!

" We " can write and speak what we want, of course, is democracy - but if the animal is dead, we will be just speculation, always.
And judgement from pictures? I do not.
Everyone remembers the dog a little different, for me is authoritative
judgemet of Mr. Hartl and what he said, I remember it well.
So how he did it and you called this forum but it not was truth! I never heard that someone said about Bux " untypical " only you in an effort to dramatize problem, what not exist at all.

You are just bored :(

Witch Soukupová

http://www.wolfsregion-lausitz.de/bi...weise/portrait
I apologize, I really should have known better than to take anything you wrote seriously, at least I learned to avoid questions.

Ina

Your comment was unnecessary. I talked about wolves gunned down in recent years.
80 kg is the largest wolf that I found the information. Your studies (and exist many!) Provides 30 - 50kg.. Other more - 39 to 72 kg.....
... 20 to 80 kg.
It depends on the age, health, maintenance condition, surely.

What's important in such case is not the boundaries but the mean and standard deviation of the distribution weight curve shape, if you have those informations I would be eager to learn it... especially for CSV, thanks.

http://www.silverstatechronicles.com...allest-man.jpg

This doesn't mean that humas go from 50 cm to 230 cm, as like 90% of male population goes from 170 to 190 cmq, and almost the same thing is for weight as obesity is not a big problem in nature.
But this topic is much about whining then numbers.

Hey Denial,

this is really a great picture !!!;-):kiss_2:puppy_dog_eyes
By the way: Do you know these two people on the photo personally?

May be YOU made the photo ??:lol:

( I guess the woman is the "type" of long legged and slim like most people here prefer for the dogs....just like Bux. But she´s a little extreme...)

Ok, one can also see that this woman is a very feminine type...only because of long legs of course...!:lol::lol::lol:

Best regards from Germany

University of Agriculture in Prague and her students worked as a bachelor and engineering several topics related to CSWs. Concern the processing of metric´ s data and the heredity of character of CSWs.
University scientists received also a grant for research and compare DNA CSW, SAW and Wolves.
None of the work does not cater for the mass - weight of animals :0(
In any action relating to the CSWs does not record the weight,
there is nothing to process. Maybe it's a good type.
In my experience the weight of females ranges from 25 to 33 kg. Constitutionally weak females are about 23 kg. In males,
the weight ranges from 32 to 40 kg.
We are talking about healthy animals in "show condition."

One of the hardest CSW, which I knew was Freeking, but he was late in life much fat - weighed 60 kg.
If he was fit he had 46 -50 kilograms he lived 13 years.

Witch Soukupová, still ;)

....sorry, but we are comparing healthy animals...not with the genetic mutation or growth failure..:( Abou dwarf is another forum....

It is interesting to see this dog in relation to his forefathers (father: Cezar od Pavlina, grandfather: Rep z Pohranieni) and his offspring (son: Cino z Rosikova). It would be very interesting to see from the participants in this discussion some comments on his son Cino z Rosikova and his father Cezar - and the relationship in types. Fenris

It seems we are going out of topic in some posts.
Bux,the dog, I have NEVER seen in real life.
Monika's links on dog shows are interesting to determine that he was NOT a great show dog, this is a fact.
Maybe problem was character?
Another fact is that he had an amazingly beautiful head. One of the best heads i've ever seen.
This DOESN'T mean he is the best stud one can use.
The best head i've ever seen is surely Galiba Crying wolf.
AGAIN, this doesn't mean he is the best stud one can use.
In fact, there are OTHER factors which make a CSW a great CSW...not just the HEAD.
I will never forget showing a friend (I hope I can still call her that way) some great fotos of a CSW...and she was honestly impressed.
When she saw the dog in real life....her impression was TOTALLY different.

The "health" topic is for me of fundamental importance.
Here I must agree with Monika.
I prefer breeding healthy dogs within standard but not SUPER wolf looking with a life expectation of many years than a CSW who is very very wolfish but with weak health structure.
I have NO DOUBT about that.
We should not forget we are playing with the lives of creatures who learn to love and be loved by us...we cannot risk their lives, we are no longer in the "military-hartl" regime when the breed was born and non appropriate dogs could be buried in huge quantities.
I HATE breeders who "risk" on health of CSWs...using extreem inbreeding or dogs who have produced several displasic puppies or a very displasic dog himself.
I know breeding is a "risk" but some risks are calculated and others not...you can "expect" some consequences of your own risks.
I have a prayer, my greatest prayer is that my dogs live a long healthy life, and die as late as possible, as I pray that my displasic dog will never suffer.

Returning to the topic, from what I see in photos Bux is an extraordinary looking CSW.
Maybe his constitution is not VERY strong or firm, but I am sure that ALL, even Monika would agree with me that it would have been worth using him more than just once with the right female to see if it was possible to get out from this dog the same head and improve the body structure.
After all, that is the main goal of a breeder...to "produce" an improved CSW from already excellent ones...

In fact, there are OTHER factors which make a CSW a great CSW...not just the HEAD.

Massimo, write it by red colour and very big font. Maybe this:
In fact, there are OTHER factors which make a CSW a great CSW...not just the HEAD.

And now, tell me, how much breeders do it. I think, not much. Everybody look at WD gallery, he see wolfish head and travel to male only for it. Not matter male is shy or he has tragical movement.....On foto is super wolfish type, so pups will look like wolf too. Shy wolfdogs? Hmmm, no problem, it is wolfdog, shynnes is normal.
:stupido

Hanka, what you say is right but shyness is NOT only a genetic factor, it ALSO depends on how the dog was brought up.
I have read your opinions on character on other threads and cannot say I agree 100% with you (photo of dog with tail under belly=shy dog...not true!)
But yes, character, structure, bloodline make a CSW...not just head, in this 100% agreement.

No problem Massimo. All people are different and nobody can agree in 100%
:shiny

hello Massimo,

the criteria of beauty in exposure change so much with time and a judge with other that he is, I think, very difficult to advance things similar ......

That would have can be been different if he had been judged by other judges ....... after what I read, and remarks that heard at the time of the visit a judge in France relating to Kondor, I wonder whether his affix was not also a problem .....

To me the head is important but mostly what’s inside of it :wink:

Judging on the look only, the most important thing will for me be the body structure and not a wolfish head or wolfish light colours...

Best regards / Mikael

about great show dog or not :roll: :rock_3

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...cesses&id=7853

while being more explicit, I saw this dog, and I always wonder how judges can give the excellent ones and titles to this type of dog, I am not expert, but there I really do not include/understand ...... :rock_3

Ask Monika ;)

The link but in English >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...cesses&id=7853

/ Mikael

Hmmmm, I see looong list of wolfdog experts.
This dog has nothing with cz. wolfdogs
:stupid

i do NOT understand what Sangria Passo del lupo has to do with this thread.
People love passing from serious constructive talk to pure bla bla.
Milions of posts have been written on "mutara" case and i honestly DONT think that one cannot speak because somebody else points out this argument.
I find it childish.

Thanks. Would it be possible to access those papers ?

Massimo, the report/ratio is right that I want to render comprehensible you that I do not see how these remarks on a dog such as Bux was, can be objective when that is seen .....

is for that I started well with "great show dog or not " , this remark of your share which appeared completely moved for like attending you since good a long time them dog show :roll:

is this well of you??

Sorry, but Sangria is, I find very an good example to render comprehensible you ....

Afflicted but of the remarks basing itself on result dog show, I do not pay any attention to that ....

you understand ?? :rock_3

Yes, Sangria have much to do here and not only, you can add the huge ammount of atipical dogs which win dogshows as "excelent" without any problems.
It will enter in this topic because still have people who dreams that dogshows select something or that dogshows results mean something about the dog.

We entered here also about "select only head", and that who are guilty for that is breder, right? I dont think so, I already had seen some dogshows in Europe with random judges as with "experts' and one thing I didn't saw was people ABLE to judge other thing than only the dog "static", isn't a shame that mostly judges have no idea about how the dog should move? Sorry its one of the most important things as you get some problems in the dogs body.
As nobody judge it, as judges only pay attention to the only thing some of them know to judge, small ears and clear eyes, so, is that some breeders select.

Should I remind also about the huge politicage wich dogshows are full?

I agree - Sangria and the 'disaster-Mutara-Project' is the best example that there are breeders which do not even have the basic idea about the breed and its standard....

Nebulosa - you right, there are more untypical Wolfdogs which are similar to Mutaras. And there are dogs which move horrible.

But all these things are caused by the same: IGNORANCE. UTTER lack of knowledge... by so called "experienced-breeders" and "expert-judges".

well.... there is a fabulous "exotic CSW" litter in Italy in theese months if you like mutara bloodline and want a show dog :lol:

By the way i don't think that heavy bones/structure/weight means that a dog is ealthy.

Freeking is a beautifull dog, but what is the matter beetween 13 years and 60 KG? If the dog gets older an makes less movement just give him less food, maybe he could live some more moths keeping his shape right.
I bet there are lots of 33-36Kg dogs that lived a lot more, but as there is no statistic (at least i don't have any), and the database doesn't give informations i'm just talking about nothing.

New show lines? :lol: Now I wait for Mutara-II-Projecct (CzW x beagle) and Extra-Show-Mutara-III-Project (CzW x Afghan hound)... :rock_3

You right. In the fact there are many reserches which say that exactly the aspirations of breeders to breed heavier and bigger dogs are the main factores for dysplasia and other similar problems.
And it is visible also by CzW: in heavy lines there are MUCH MORE serious problem with ED, HD and untypical movement than by the right build (not light, just NORMAL).

NO, Wolfdog is calecting such infromations... So maybe one day elf will prepare us some stats. Anyway when I was colecting the data is was really easy to see: heavy dogs (in the direction to be lymphatic) not only live shorter. But also "worser" - earlier they look "old" very fast...

I saw some REALLY heavy Wolfdogs and it was SAD look. Such animals are simply handicapped when we compare them to "normal" CzWs...

Here are the graphs I had for HD vs size, 1107 dogs with HD+bonitation (raw data at the bottom: i.e. check not many entries for some size...).

HD A+B

http://ametiste.ifrance.com/HD/HD_AB.png


HD C+D+E

http://ametiste.ifrance.com/HD/HD_CDE.png


HD A

http://ametiste.ifrance.com/HD/HD_A.png


HD B

http://ametiste.ifrance.com/HD/HD_B.png


HD C

http://ametiste.ifrance.com/HD/HD_C.png


HD D

http://ametiste.ifrance.com/HD/HD_D.png


HD E

http://ametiste.ifrance.com/HD/HD_E.png


73cm = {'A': 3, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 1, 'D': 0, 'F': 0}
72cm = {'A': 13, 'C': 6, 'B': 3, 'E': 0, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
70cm = {'A': 32, 'C': 9, 'B': 9, 'E': 4, 'D': 5, 'F': 0}
71cm = {'A': 21, 'C': 3, 'B': 5, 'E': 3, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
69cm = {'A': 42, 'C': 11, 'B': 10, 'E': 4, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
68cm = {'A': 40, 'C': 13, 'B': 15, 'E': 1, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
67cm = {'A': 59, 'C': 14, 'B': 11, 'E': 2, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
66cm = {'A': 52, 'C': 14, 'B': 14, 'E': 0, 'D': 9, 'F': 0}
65cm = {'A': 56, 'C': 9, 'B': 16, 'E': 3, 'D': 8, 'F': 0}
64cm = {'A': 50, 'C': 13, 'B': 19, 'E': 1, 'D': 4, 'F': 0}
63cm = {'A': 50, 'C': 8, 'B': 16, 'E': 4, 'D': 7, 'F': 0}
62cm = {'A': 65, 'C': 21, 'B': 20, 'E': 4, 'D': 7, 'F': 0}
61cm = {'A': 31, 'C': 13, 'B': 11, 'E': 5, 'D': 3, 'F': 0}
60cm = {'A': 31, 'C': 4, 'B': 6, 'E': 1, 'D': 2, 'F': 0}
59cm = {'A': 4, 'C': 1, 'B': 2, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
58cm = {'A': 2, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
57cm = {'A': 2, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 1, 'F': 0}
55cm = {'A': 0, 'C': 0, 'B': 1, 'E': 0, 'D': 0, 'F': 0}

:ehmmm hmmmmmmmmm... Did you come to any conclusion about the size and the effect of HD from this info...

Sorry ta ask, but I´m stupid :lol:

Best regards / Mikael

The problem is "high" dog doen't mean "heavy". And there is nothing in the database what can show us "heavy" "normal" and "light" CzW there...

Correct Mikael, as we can see on the graphs we can conclude "almost" nothing ;).

>"almost"

My little conclusion, if you take the curve HD_CDE and make a linear regression on it (in green), you find there is a little correlation, here it is:

http://ametiste.ifrance.com/HD/HD_CDE_linear_reg.png

Oh, but it is not corect. Not every high dog must be heavy too....

Thank good I was not stupid :lol:

Best regards / Mikael

Correct, not high dog must be heavy... but, what the graph do suggest is there is anyway a correlation (tight) between the high and % of dysplasic. This can be explained by, there is a correlation (if you take enough dogs) -even if there are heavy, normal, light types- between height and weight ; and weight helps dysplasic genes to reveal (maybe also lever effect ?).

One of the best works about the character of CSWs created by Jindřich Jedlicka as work diploma.
Jindra has never not publish on Wolfdog. org. Work is private property, I have it in a bound form but I respect his opinion.
Jindra is one of the best experts on CSWs as a managed data and information processing failed after no one.
Try to contact him personally - kennel : Šedá eminence.

Work and publishing rights about DNA include the University of Prague, though the results were sent to me, because I took part in a collection of samples, I van not publish here also nothing, sorry.


For Mikael

Sangria - is a dog entered in the Register FCI and if you look in his registry he had 3 generations empty.
These animals can be exhibit! Judge never know which of the animals has pedigree and is registered in the Registr. only.
The Judge is required to judge the exterior, under the applicable standard, nothing more and nothing less.
It is very strictly forbidden to be interested about the origins animals before the jugement.
Is breed what have World dog winner with registr, only.

The book of origin of CSW is open and write to the Register is legal!

As registry FCI work let everyone find myself ... I'm tired.

It is very funny to observe how the fanatical Margo " lights up and catch the first primed " only hear the words Mutara. :lol:

3 Registers in the CR - ČMKU had entered by Mr. Hartl. Without his signature would not be possible, at all and he knew why.
It is very stupid to think, that he decided " our and his " breed CSW to discarded!

I think, those who advocate as violently strong inbreeding and condemn Registr, knows absolutely nothing about genetics and breeding, as such, and publication of any scientific papers and a comparison here is - insignificant.
Hereby apologize to all, which is not the last word.

Everyone has the right to choose and it is easy to see the pedigree and the register and to separate them from each other.

Best greetings
Witch Soukupová

This doesn't really apply to original topic, but...the discussion of size/build/HD made me think of it...

I took 2 of my dogs to have Penn-Hip tests last winter (male, 65/66 cm, 18 months and female, 60 cm, 15 months).

Results:

Male: .38/.39 - no HD evident at all
Female: .27/.37 - no HD at all

PennHip measures laxity or "looseness" of the hip, which is a big genetic component of HD

This fall, I took the same two dogs for OFA tests - male at 27 months, female 24

Results: Male - Mild HD, left hip (C), Female - Excellent (A1)

The results suggested 3 things to me (hopefully I will have more results as I test more dogs) -

1. It is possible HD shows at later ages (big change from 18-24 months for the male, a surprise - I learned OFA results after I bred my litter - although I knew it was a possibility from the HD present in earlier generations)
2. Size is a factor, since both dogs had similar laxity
3. HD can present with relatively tight hips (it is the same for the GSD) - close to or below .30 is considered very low risk, close to or above .70 is considered high risk - but it changes a little with each breed

Hanka, you could not better describe the thought of CZW breeding in Italy:(...and more, on italian forum you can read: "Czw without typical wolfish mistrust, is not a good CZW...the most important is wolfish look, light eyes, short ears, large head...all others request of standard is not important.."

Freeking died six months after the tragic death as his owner.
Nobody know how long he was here if were Franta alive and Freeking was 10 kg less ...

Freeking was only a exsample largest CSW, nothing more.

:heuloff course not all breeders but still... :(

But off course the fastest way to get there :PROXY Is to add a wolf :lol:

Best regards / Mikael

..i can't agree..on a heavy dog, HD affect more than a light dog, (environmental factors) but from genetical heritage point view (the first, and only reason of HD presence), and genetical trasmission is wrong (for science knowledge of today), or better, is very very hard to demonstrate for the complexity of the interpenetration between genetic and environmental factors.

..if is realy than heavy type can give many healty problem, is realy also than reducing size with hig's inbreeding, even with strict selection on disease, classic depression from imbreeding are alwais present with COI more than 15% for 2-3 generation. We can see it on all toy breed and more others breed than coming from a so big type. Are all very dificult breed to breeding with great healt problem..yes, CZW is so far from this but Trumler study on domestication say: "on hybrid type these process are much faster than in a domestic dog breed"

For me (from photos and tales, off course) this dog had perfect masculine expression, perfect bones...excelent COI, and better blood because had a hybrid line more than Bux, and thuse a more genetic variability...

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m...98/tambury.jpg

however i'm proud to have both, Bux and Tambury, on the pedegree of my female:)!

FCI judge and now again such words..... :shock: GREAT WORK AGAIN!
As CzW breeder and FCI judge you REALLY do not see anything wrong on it... For you it is really nothing wrong if people cheat, lie and brake the FCI regulations?!?!? :rock_3 :lol:

Of course EVERYBODY can mix wolfdogs. With whippets, shepherds, chihuahuas, beagles, with every possible dog. And the so called "breeders" of such mixes will find a country where they will be able to register their "exotic Wolfdogs"...

BUT - DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SAY IT IS RIGHT! That it is FAIR. So please READ the first words of the "STATUTES OF THE FCI"

The aims of the FCI are:
(1) to encourage and promote the breeding and use of purebred dogs whose functional health and physical features meet the standard set for each respective breed and which are able to work and to carry out different functions in accordance with the specific characteristics of their breed;
(2) to protect the use, the keeping and the breeding of purebred dogs in the countries where the FCI has a member or a contract partner ; to support the non-profit exchange of dogs and of cynological information between the members and to initiate the organization of shows, tests, trials and other activities like sport events, the use of dogs in rescue operations, etc.
(3) to promote and support dogdom and dog welfare worldwide

FCI is made for breeding PUREBRED dogs. Not for cheaters producing mixes and mutts.... Even if the producers are able to find backdors to register their mutts and get pedigrees for them (according or against the national regulations).

I think you are forgeting one really important thing - you are FCI JUDGE.

FCI judge of THIS organization: http://www.fci.be/ and NOT of this one: http://www.newsworldfci.com/. It really seems you get lost and you promote the rules of the "wrong" FCI organization...

Your behavior is beyond the boundary of decent behavior and to limit the law also.

You are One from hundreds of CSW breeders nothing more and Wolfdog. org is no official medium any FCI organization!

Register FCI leaves me cold, my role and accomplishments in their birth, and registration is zero, I do not have any particular interest, however, interested me in terms of breeding, and never for me, can not run a hysterical reaction and grafomania attack, as in you and that's the difference between me and you!

I am zootechnik no PC expert.

Hybridize CSV with whippet or the beagle and ask for their inclusion in the register CSW??? :shock: But you can try it!::lol:

Use your graphomania and write questions about (for you problematic) the register on ČMKU, ENCI and FCI!
Their reply, without handling insert here, it can be helpful and clear.

All other speculation, lies and slander attacking just talking about your outstanding character and fanaticism, only.

Witch Soukupová

Why do you WONDER? Why do you SMILE? Why do you so sceptical? You have done already something much WORSER!

If I mix my CzW with beagle I will get puppies which will have 50% of blood of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
And YOU were able to register by CMKU and later by ENCI dogs which have 0% of blood of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.

So if it was possible to register Mutaras (which have 0% similarities to this breed) for sure it will be much easier to register beagle-CzW mixes which will have 50% genetical similarity to CzW.... :lol:
If ENCI and CMKU registered Mutaras now they MUST agree to register mixes which are much more "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs alike"...

But they tought "Mutaras" are pups from father cz.wolfdog and wolf female. Somebody forgot to write CANADIAN wolf and somebody did not write father was some mix.

Hana do you saw the register of them?? You should have these papers in head??

Ask officialy organization or their owners ! Not read wolfdog.org only.

...again the discussion switches to Mutara and Mutara gate...:frown::frown::frown:...
Bux, heavy-light dogs arguments immediately become of no interest...
But it seems for Paula all this is coherent to thread...:stupido
So only choice now is to sit back and wait till the conclusion arrives (and always is the same conclusion....):popcorn:

wll the discussion in quite senseless anyway as averybody will keep breeding the kind they like, and what is ugly for someone can be beautiful to someone else.
The thing is that this race is called WOLFdog, and as written in the standard it should look as much as possible to a WOLF.
Then if someone likes heavy type head and bodies because they are better for working and more ealthy (are them?) it is ok, breed that kind, as they are in standard anyway more or less.
Same thing for more wolfish type.

But as i Want a WOLFdog i'll rether go for the second one as nothing tells that wolfish kind is weaker sicker or is gonna die sooner then the gsg kind.

Looking to the pictures in the gallery of dogs and wolves what i can say (just my opinion) is that the heavier the scructure is the more the it will look like a GSD one rather then a wolf one (chest and front legs overall), and unfortunately haven't seen many wolfkind heavy structure ones (are there any?).

Think teoreticly about it:
Just for example: we have 8 groups of males. In 6 groups is about 20 males and we can be happy about it.These groups will survive to future. They are nice, health, "dry" types, wolfish heads, beautiful movement.... But in two groups of males is only a few males, not nice, a little heavy, maybe some HD problems. Can we let them dead without pups????
What do you mean?
We need large genopool, so we MUST use every male which we have..It can be, 5-10 years later we will need them urgently.
Is here somebody who think about genopool?
I think, reason is to use ALL males what we can use and try to "work" on better exterier of this group.
True is- Czech republic "keep" genopool for all World. It is, why we have in breeding ugly males too, not only "stars of shows"....
Yes, I see, nobody want use them, especially from other countries. Everybody travel only to winners...

I can not find this info in the standard, can you quote it please :roll:

Best regards / Mikael

Thanks, but it was not really me asking the question, it was Martiou.
And I do not think you did answer it, the question was...

Or is your answer that you did give this dog excellent because of that you can not tell the different if no one shows you the pedigree first :? ???

You seriously mean I and Martiou that is absolutely by far no experts on the breed, can se that something is not really as it suppose to be whit this dog !!! But you as a breed expert need to se the pedigree to know the dog is not excellent or even not a CsV
:?:?:? ???

Sad regards / Mikael

Of course not, but it also does not mean use these males with all females possibles, what we can see are people using heavy males with nice tendency for HD with heavy females in the same conditions, it will not improve the breed, its not selection as the problem will persist and people will also have some problems to find correct females for his offsprings.

but let me remind a small problem here, mostly of the dogs today are not wolfish, I mean, what we can often see are heavy dogs with hanging lips huge chest and horrible movement, as the selection is not made and some people only cares for the lowest COI possible, we will continue to have more degenerated dogs as the time pass.

Low COI, genetic variability is very important, but we may never forget about selection as well, its need work both things togeter.

And please, i'm not talking here about someone specific or trying to "attack" someones breeding way, but I really worrie about what I listened a lot in 2009, some breeders doing litters wich they tough are nice only because both dogs are A and the COI % were small.

:ehmmm Hmmmmm... It looks like the easiest questions is the hardest to answer ;) post # 82 and # 83...

And I wonder way...

Regards / Mikael

I am a beginner and I am learning thru the help of a very good CZ friend. Breeders should not allow the CZ Wolfdog to suffer the FATE of those breeds with working capabilities and protective instinct that are now all GONE due to PREFERENCES. Our beloved CZ wolfdogs are a true working breed very close to the wilds. Lets stay close to nature. Just my humble opinion.8)

Really very interesant post !!!

But good genopool is not only different lines but good quality too. Maybe your club have many lines but i see only very few dogs which lokk very good and like wolfs. Breed start in your country but now i see maybe 2 or maybe 3 dogs with nice look in czech republic and it is much less that in other clubs. For me you say nice text but reality is not good.

I read all topic and i think it will be with our breed like with others and there will be many different types of CLC. And in many breeds such exist and also here other people can breed with their preferences. If Hanka, Monika and czech club want breed heavy dogs they can make "czech line" of CLC and if solowolf like with lot of coat like american he can do "english line". And nobody must love czech line or english line.
Everybody can make his line with specific look and we - people who will buy a new CLC can choose. Till this topic I was interested in CLC but now i was informed that i like "jackals" because I like a lot Bux photos - for me he is best wolfdog i see on photos.