Elbow Dysplasia
 

I have one question to you all here: if the heart illness would be found by your dogs would you breed with them? With the explanation "my dog have hearth problems but other people who breed do not check it and it is possible their dogs are also ill"?

The dogs was removed because in the most cases the elbow problem were hidden by their owners and elbow problems start to spread among the breed. While before there were also none known cases of ED-dysplasia it is getting more and more problematic and every month I'm getting information about new ED-infected dogs.

The main difference between HD and ED is: ED is considered as be higher heriditary than HD.
While using HD-free dogs you can only reduce the number of HD-infected puppies. The same method in the case of ED (using ED-free dogs) almost guaranty ED-free puppies. And vice versa: breeding with the ED-infected dogs almost guaranty some ED-infected puppies in a litter. None method is perfect but if the case of using both parents with ED-problems you will get 40% of puppies with elbow problems and if one of the parents is ED-infected still 13% will have ED-problems (according OFA). High number compared to HD where the heredity is much lower and the influence of other factors bigger.

When you will look into the database (maybe Margo or elf can prepare some statistisc) you will see that most ED-affected dogs belong to the same "family" and have common ancestors; and their offsprings also are ED-affected.

Nobody can forbid the breeding with ED-dogs but if you like it or not you must take into consideration that by using ED-infected dogs the problem will spread out. According to the researches it seems that removing ED-dogs from the group of breeding dogs can give fast very good results and it can reduce the number of ED-infected dogs to the number when we can say again "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs DO NOT have problems with elbows".
It is up to you if you will use such dogs for breeding. We just give you the advice "it seems to be a bad idea".

With this way of thinking, will you also remove all dogs with HD B and C from the studdoglist, because pretty much the same can be said about these dogs, I am just afraid if you decide to do that, our breed will soon have some other problems like even stronger inbreeding than now, ED 1/1 is the mildest degree except for ED 0/0, I can`t imagne breeding with HD C is better or worse than breeding with ED 1/1, as long as the other dog have ED 0/0 or HD A, but if you are ONLY giving advises, then there is no reason to remove the dogs from studdoglist as people then still can choose if they want to use a dog with ED 1/1 or HD C or if you should follow your ideology, you should also remove all dogs who have no ED results.

....Just some thoughts !

Rolf

I wil not agree with you. If you mate two HD-free dogs you will still get some puppies with worser results (dysplatic). When you mate two ED-free dogs you can almost be sure that ALL puppies will be healthy.

Second: if you remove dogs with results worser than HD-A you will loose a lot of interesting blood. If you remove all dogs with ED-problems you loose NOTHING.

It is simple calculation.

In many countries the breeders can do whatever they want. They can breed (and they do) with HD-E dogs, with dogs without pedigrees, with wrong bites, epileptic, with missing testicles or so called Mutaras. But I hope you understand it is not a way of responsible breeding which should be advertised here on Wolfdog.

One thing you can not change: dog with ED 1-1 is not a heathly dog. The same case are dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, eye problem and any genetical faults. A responsible breeders will not breed with such dog and will not look for excuses like "but other breeders do not check it". MAYBE other dogs are not heathly also but dogs with diagnosed genetic illness are not healthy FOR SURE.

I know it is painfull information for you because as I see Voice is half-brother of your dogs but I hope you will understand this steps because according to the information written on Internet we can really cause visible improvement of the ED-results in some lines if we will remove not healthy dogs.

The problem with this is just that you have no idea if dogs without ED results, have ED 2/2 or worse, but still they are on the studdoglist, only because the owners did not care to test their dogs or tested their dogs but did not make it official, so in a way you reward people who don`t test or hide the results from public and punish people who do test and makes it official, I really don`t like that thought :evil:

And you honestly think it is better to reward people not to test their dogs, so they will not be removed from the list here on wolfdog.org ? ...shame on you :evil:

If it really is that importent, why do you allow people to advertise for dogs who are not tested(or not officially tested) for ED, when you don`t allow dogs who are not officially tested for HD ? ...to me that is pretty strange :shock:

I really don`t see how this information can be painfull for me ? Uno is officially tested for all possible diseases(HD, ED, Eye diseases and Pituitary dwarfism) Xtreme too(except HD and ED as he need to be 18month before making the xrays) and they are both free/healthy(Uno have HD B).
I test my dogs more than most people :rock_3

I really don`t think so, all you achieve by these steps, is people stop testing their dogs, because then no one can remove the unhealthy dogs from the list and you will be in absolutly same place as you started or in an even worse place :roll: ...without people testing their dogs, you don`t even have a possibility to choose to use a dog without ED, because nobody knows if the dogs will have it ! ....sorry, but your politics and assumptions sucks, in my humble opinion !

Rolf

Rolf, could you please quote the exactly moment where Admin wrotes that the dogs without results will stay in the list of Stud dogs? I really didn't find it, so I believe that all dogs without ED results will lso be removed from the list.
So far seems that the datas on some places of the webpage are not actualized because its still the old page.

Nebulosa, no I can not, because Admin choose not answer that part of my reply in post 10(last line), but if it is so, then I apologize for assumption, but still I don`t see why ED 1/1 is worser than HD C(which I think is allowed to use in all countries), as Admin wrote :

"If you mate two HD-free dogs you will still get some puppies with worser results (dysplatic). When you mate two ED-free dogs you can almost be sure that ALL puppies will be healthy."

This frase makes me think that HD is worser than ED when speaking about heriditary diseases, but ofcourse I am not an expert :oops:

Rolf

Really? So you will prefer to breed with dog which is ill and the heriditary of the illnes is higher and the chance of getting ill puppies is bigger. Than with dog where the heriditary is smaller and the illnes is caused in many cases not by genetic but external factors... Weird way of thinking. Sp we should breed dogs with heart problems because the problem is no so common like HD... And breed with dogs with one testicle because very high percentage of offsprings of such dog will be normal?

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

why do you edit my text when you quote it ?

I ask questions to things I do not understand, if it bother you, please tell me and I will stop ! but please stop trying to put stupid opinions on me, ofcourse I prefer to breed with dogs who are healthy(if I were a breeder).

What do you think your self ?

HD C and ED 1/1 are both ill dogs, as non of them are 100% healthy and if one is worse than another, I really don`t know ? If you breed from HD/ED free dogs, HD seems to be worser than ED, when is comes to the result of the ofspring who are effected by this, but on the other hand, when you breed from dogs who are not HD/ED free it seeme that ED is worser then HD, when it comes to the result of the ofsprings effected by this.
Again I must say(with the chance to for this to be deleted in the next qoute), I am NOT an expert !

HD and ED is the same thing in different places of the body, I am sorry but I have never heard of any sientific test who proved that HD is more effected by external factors than ED is ? in fact, the differences between these two illneses I can only take your word for it is true... and as I can see above, your assumptions is not always true !

Rolf

Hi Rolf. One very short (and maybe stupid) question. Can you buy for you for example puppy from mother with czech HD result D (3/3) and italian B? If this puppy will be health (A or B), will you breed him?

Hi Hanka,
I don`t care from which country HD results is made as I have no knowledge of which countries/vets. is better or worse to make exact HD resuts. When I buy a puppy or choose to use my own dogs for breeding, I leave all questions about health to people who I trust have enough experience/knowledge about this and don`t worry any more about it.

HD D is not allowed to breed in Denmark(I think in all FCI countries?).

Rolf

I hope in other countries too :lol:
I wont only this answer.

the thing that more it makes me become sad it is the fact that I personally have asked more times an answer to my questions in this thread, but there has been need of a particular and correct intervention from Rolf (message n°8 ) to make to answer the amministrator, this it is sad.

The dog in matter is Voice of wolf, my dog with HD A and ED 0-1 and not ED 1-1 before thing to be clarified.
Second thing I don't absolutely agree that HD C is not similar to ED 1-1 (and what however it doesn't concern my dog that has ED 0 -1).
Besides I don't know with what statistics you work, but the displasia of the hip derives from a genetic factor, stings.
The environmental factor can worsen only a pup that however he could be carrier, also in least part.
Of sure all the pups should grow with a correct environmental factor because he is not able' never to know, but if a pup genetically has ancestors without displasia the pup he is healthy, he is genetically almost impossible that the factor environmental harbors displasia to a healthy pup of this illness.

But the thing most important it is not these thoughts of mine or yours that can be lined up or no.
The fundamental thing is that if there are some rules they must be correct and correct for all the dogs.
I'm agree!

You of the site have made your calculations and studies. I am able not to agree but being a site tried me I must respect the rules and I don't have problem. Voice of wolf is a dog that cannot be on the stud list, ok there is no problem.
But they must have removed all the dogs that don't have the official plates of the elbows. Before sended the plates of Voice at center of official reading, I knew that 1 elbow was not perfect and I could only to make official the HDs. Instead I am correct and I have furnished to you some site the Official information.
Then, I repeat him: if there are some rules in a private site they must have respected even if I don't agree.
But the rules must be equal for everybody, otherwise the site loses the credibility.
And it would be a sin.

It is unjust!
Hanka I like your work and your seriousness, but whenI go to made HD results for my dog, I go to University of Padova (where there are famous and important teachers and studies on displasy) they tell me immediately that she is sure A and than this results go to the ufficial reading central (there are only two central in Italy) and the ufficial results is A.
If what you say would be true, in Italy all dogs will be A or B, but it isn't the real situation! There is also C, D and E.

What dogs did you know that have mistake results?

Hello Serewolf, for me is sad, much wolfdogs is in breeding without HD results. So I think, they have bad HD result. It is not under ENCI. It is bad for breed.
This question what I wrote was special for Rolf :lol:

For the moment, all you have to do in Denmark to breed with a CSW,
is to get a 2. place at an international dogshow, nothing more... :(
So if you don`t make official xrays, you can breed with all CSW`s in Denmark does`nt matter if the dog have strong HD, ED or other illnesses.

I hope to change that in the near future, but things take time !

Rolf

What is written here is very interesting and new to me.
If this is the decision of the administration of Wolfdog.org, let it be (i'm not sooo much against it actually)
But, I kindly ask the Admin if it's possible to write, for more and better knowledge of the viewers, the criteria used to make the list and what makes you be excluded.
Also... could the Admin kindly state if ALL the dogs included in the list have HD results sent to Wolfdog.org (as always requested in the past?) or just ... announced by email from the owner.
Thanks
Massimo

The main changes are in the hereditability of the HD and ED, for you have an idea, the hereditability of HD starts in 0.2 and ends in 0.4, the hereditability of ED starts in 0.4 and ends in 1.0 (its the maximum it can arrives), depending of the breed.
We can't compare ED 1 with HD C as the dog with ED 1 already shows the degeneration, when a dog with HD C can have perfect bones with no degeneration, but only not nice norberg angles.

Thanks nebulosa, But don`t understand what you mean with these numbers and I have no idea what norberg angle is ? ...But I have been reading some articles in the past, stating that HD(I don`t remember if ED also were mentioned) is many times not that a big problem for the dog, if it have strong musculation and live a healthy life(not saying that it is never a problem for some dogs or is does`nt matter for breeding).

Maybe I am stupid, but HD = Hip Dysplasia and ED = Elbow Dysplasia, so it is Dysplasia in the hips and in the elbows, how come one is worser than another, I mean it is the same thing, but in different places, so the degree of how bad or good it is, must be in the scales HD = A, B, C, etc. and ED = 0/0, 1/1, 2/2, etc. ? ...or am I totally wrong ?

Rolf

Rolf...Hanka maybe doesn't speak DIRECTLY but honestly more direct than what is written is quite impossible...
Did you buy a puppy from a female who had HD made in Italy and was B?
I saw the xrays with my eyes, and the Italian documents behind it.
That is enough for me.
According to someone it seems that she had in Czech D(3/3)...

Now I make a stupid question:
HD X rays of czech dogs made outside Czech republic because afraid of results given by Dr Sterc are ok?:roll:

Really...I would avoid throwing shit on others (as already mentioned by Edit...) it's not healthy and somehow it comes back to you.
If you doubt Italian X rays (and one in particular) then if we start doubting ALL Xrays made in other countries different than Czech.... you lost your road completely.
I can show you how HD results are given in Italy...I am curious to see the Czech paperwork!
HD A
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2489/...4556b39b3a.jpg
ED 0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3435/...4c827d9162.jpg
HD D
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2581/...d36d5d812b.jpg
ED 0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2472/...7284e124d2.jpg

Massimo can translate please?

Definizione scientifica dell'HD:

La displasia dell'anca intesa come degenerazione articolare dell'anca su base genetica è una malformazione coxo-femorale. E' una patologia poligenica e multifatoriale. Poligenica perchè molti geni intervengono nella sua manifestazione, diverse tipologie di controllo genico governano questo poligenismo, dalla comune Dominanza, Recessione, Compenetrazione Parziale o Completa nonche l'Epistasi (fenomeno per cui un tale gene in un determinato loci può influire nel comportamento di un'altro gene in un'altro loci) Multifattoriale perchè la sua espressione è fortemente legata alle influenze ambientali come stile di vita, traumi ed alimentazione.
E' scientificamente provato e riconosciuto che i fattori ambientali possono solo influire sulla modulazione e sull'espressione della patologia. Un cane geneticamente sano non può soffrire di displasia dell'anca per un influenza ambientale. L'influenza ambientale può far si che un cane geneticamente predisposto, manifesti solo un'imperfezione (HD-B, in Italia definita anche sospetta displasia) o una grave espressione della stessa (HD-E).
E' altresi errato affermare che lo stile di allevamento possa generare cani displasici per sola influenza ambientale. Un fattore ambientale nocivo nel cucciolo può in un cane geneticamente sano per quanto riguarda HD, provocare una degenerazione artrosica dell'anca (dovuta a traumi e infezioni batteriche, ect ect), molto simile all'HD per sintomi, ma ben distinguibile nell'esame radiografico.
La displasia del gomito è una patologia più facilmente eradicabile rispetto all'HD, perchè è governata da un solo gene di controllo semplice o Mendeliano, nella fattispecie è un gene Dominante quindi, per le leggi di Mendel, per eradicare un gene dominante è sufficiente eliminare dalla riproduzione il soggetto che presenta quel determinato fenotipo. Ovvero il soggetto che possiede il gene della displasia del gomito, presenta la patologia a livello fenotipico.
Nella displasia dell'anca, un soggetto sano fenotipicamente può avere un patrimonio genetico altamente predisposto a trasmettere la displasia e quindi non è sufficiente riprodurre sulla base del fenotipo dei genitori.
La stima del valore genetico (genetica quantitativa) è il metodo che fino ad oggi ha dato maggiori risultati, ma si basa su enormi e accurati notizie fenotipiche, calcoli genetici e correzioni matematiche atte a considerare i fattori ambientali nell'espressione della patologia.
La nuova frontiera (ne ha parlato recentemente Ina) è una ricerca sui marcatori genetici, o microsatelliti, ovvero delle conformazioni ricorrenti nella sequenza del DNA. Per spiegare in poche parole, questa ricerca non individua i geni responsabili, ma delle configurazioni ricorrenti (ovveri dei "disegni", marcatori nella stringa del DNA) direttamente collegate all'espressione della patologia. E' sempre un metodo indiretto come la stima del valore genetico, ma molto più semplice e più rapido nel caso di un buon numero di campioni di DNA.

- Atti del 1° Convegno Cinoflilo Nazionale 6 dicembre 2008 "La displasia dell'anca e nuovi criteri nella selezione dei riproduttori" relatore dott. Pedrani CELEMASCHE
-Missiva del dott. Vezzoni FSA
-articolo del dott. Asnaghi CELEMASCHE
-"Metodi di Miglioramento Genetico in Cinologia" Università di Pisa Leotta 2004
-"Genetic for Dog Breeders" Robinson 1990

affermare che allevare i cuccioli magri come lupi, sia un metodo di miglioramento nell'incisività della displasia dell'anca è scientificamente errato! Concordo nell'allevare i cuccioli nel modo più naturale possibile, ma non per motivi legati alla displasia dell'anca!

Massimo, I did not understand it like that ?
I saw Xrays of my dogs mother too and it were fine, for sure not HD D 3/3

Rolf

then maybe i'm wrong...if I'm wrong, then please Hanka excuse me...

No...too long! :lol::lol:
Use google translator
And anyway you explain what was already said by others (Paula's explanation and Admin's one (who the heck is Admin??) was more simple and easier to understand!):
elbow and hip displasia are transmitted in different ways. Take away from breeding a dog with Elbow displasia and you have a higher probability to eliminate the problem because it's a Genetic factor while Hips are combination of genetic and environment.

Lets try to put it in percentage.
Hereditability of HD: 20% to 40%
Herebitability of ED: 40% of 100%
Depending of the breed.

In easy words, Norberg Angles are the meassure of the angle formed by the center of the femor head with the acetabulum border, those angle is one thing evaluated in the HD exam and different angles results in different HD results.
Basically, when more far the femoral head is from acetabulum, less angles it will have, worst result the dog will have.
Actually, this metod works pretty well and really helps the selection of the dogs, for sure it will show a displasic dog without any problems as it will show any kind of degeneration already existent, but the polemic of the metod is that the laxity of the cartilage cannot be really evaluate in the X rays, so we can see some cases of females in heath who had receive bad results in the first X rays, and a normal one with nice results about 2 months after it because the hormonal incluence in the cartilages, we also have few cases of very old dogs with bad norberg angles but no damage at all in the femor, but this last one seems to be pretty rare.
Remembering that now we have the Distraction metod ( pennhip) which evaluate the laxity, but unhapply its still not avaible for every country like the well know X-ray metod.
I think this part already reply you the next one, what is the difference in a HD C dog and a ED 1 dog, as the two are considerated displasic

A dog with ED 1 was evaluate like that because the veterinary already found a degeneration, that means a dog with ED 1 already have the signals of degeneration, like Osteophytes or sclerosis while an displasic C dog can receive those results without have any degeneration, but bad Norberg angles. When you have the Elbow signal and results pretty clear, you don't have such certainly in Hips, don't wonder why on HD you have some degrees before consider a dog affected or not, while on ED or the dog is clear or he is already affected and the others results will only show how worst it is.

No Massimo, on first i explane than Hips can't be created by external factor, Hips start in any case from genetic heritage...breeding condition's of puppy can't be in any case positive or negative about the genetic's manifestation of Hips. A breeding condition beneficial for animals genetically predisposed do not manifest the disease seriously, is maybe better for the dog and the owner but is negativ for the genetic improvement of the population!!!

Massimo, you are very lazy:lol:!!!

...this is wrong...HD ever start from genetic heritage...development of the disease for 80% depend on external factors!!

is a big differences!!!!

"...a genetically healthy dog can not get HD disease from external factors.."

i must put bibliografy again?

Is scientifically tried and recognized that the environmental factors can influence only on the modulation and on the expression of the pathology. A genetically healthy dog cannot suffer from displasia of the hip for an environmental influence. Environmental influence can make that a dog genetically predisposed apparent only an imperfection (HD-B, in Italy also defined suspicious displasy) or a serious expression of the same one(HD-E).

Where the bibliografy you send have the hereditability of HD? I only saw an adversiment about it, almost a cultural one for breeders.

Its only one studie who shows numbers like that, if you search you will find much more.

I no moment I said HD was not a genetical illness, but the truth is that external factors make a huge difference in the results, of course a dog without genetic for displasy will not show it BUT nothing impeach this dog to have a subluxation because the place it lives or by accident, wrong feed with wrong exercices can cause artritis, all those cases will be considered displasic in the exams, even if those animals have no dysplasi in their genetic, of course we will not see an A dog turn E because it, but we can see non displasic dogs with B or C.
No wonder why we have so many grades for HD.

Yes, the dog cant get displasy by external factors, but he can have artritis and artrosis by it, and it will change the HD evaluation on the official results also as a non displasic dog with bad norberg angles.
In the same way you can get a dog which have a strong genetic for the problem, but because the threatment it will receive B or C.

Well, we have no doubts about how 20 to 30% of genetic can make a huge difference, you can see it principally in the behaviour of working dogs, now you can imagine how much difference it can make when its 40 to 100%.

Paula, this is taken and translate from my post of yesterday and those words are taken from e-mail of Dott. Vezzoni, president of ufficial reading central FSA (the first central in Italy), and the same word i have heard at Dott. Pedrani (CELEMASCHE, second and last central in Italy) at "HD conference" on december 2008.

Arthrosic degeneration can't have influence on dysplasya official result

Many people (not you) don't know very well HD from scientific point wiew, is dangerous to say: "Hereditability of HD: 20% to 40%" is better, and more correct to say: "A dysplasic dog inherits his disease from genetic/hereditary way (100%), but the modulation, expression and seriousness are controlled at 60-80% by environmental factors"

Today I have been talking with 4 different vets., one of them is Peter Weis which is a specialist in diagnostics and treatment of joint-/bones-illness and radiography (including PennHIP), he is also member of NOVOS(Nordic Veterinary Orthopedics Society).

They all stated that, HD / AD is both EQUALLY a product of enviroment and hereditary, to proove that one of them have a higher % of hereditary than the other is impossible, as you can not create the EXACT same enviroment for two dogs(even harder with more dogs) to grow up in and further more is it impossible two find to dogs with ABSOLUTLY same genes, which in both cases can make all the difference in the final results. None of them have never heard of breeding from ED free dogs, will give almost all puppies free of ED or that breeding from dogs with ED will for sure give all puppies ED, to me they all explained that the hereditary risks of HD and ED is absolutly the same.

Conclution : It makes no sense to exclude dogs with a mild degree of ED and allow dogs with a mild degree of HD, as one is not worser or better than the other.

Was this not the reason why Admin made this step, to remove all dogs with ED ? ...aparrently it is for no reason, unless all dogs with HD is removed too !

Please correct me if I am wrong, nobody is perfect ;-)

Rolf

Here we describe the method for assessing environmental influence (different environmental influence) in the calculation of genetic value estimate for HD about a population of Boxer. Here i don't read than those (environmental influence) are the cause of HD.
If we want to think to environmental influenc with a practical purpose on CZW we need a similar project. Without this we can think only at phenotype (ufficial result) and genealogical relationship on the selection of stud dog.

I fully agree with you ! ...but if this happens the stud list will be VERY VERY small.

Another problem with ED is that ED is a term used for MANY different illnesses in the elbow, which is caused by many different things, on top of that in most countries only one photo is used to decide if the dog have ED or not, if done in a effective way, at least 3 photos is needed and many times ED is given for small things who never will have any impact on the dogs life(movement), all depending on the vets. who decide to give ED or not. The expert(Peter Weis) have just bought a German shepherd himself from one parent with ED 0/1 witch I assume(according to his expertise) he would not have done if it really is so bad as some people here want it to be.

Statistics of HD for the last 30 years show that in general no more or less dogs have better hips than for 30 years ago, despite all efforts to eleminate dogs with HD worser than HD C ....ED have not even been researched as long time as HD, why jumping to any conclutions seems to be a waiste of time and are irrelevant for the health of our breed.

Rolf

That is very bad and sad news if it is correct :(

I think the big step against less HD and ED will come first whit the new DNA testing, but until than I think HD and ED x-rays are to be demands for a studdog.

Best regards / Mikael

Sad but true ! genetics is not that easy to handle and since our breed already suffer from inbreeding more than most other breeds, I think it is stupid to eliminate dogs for no scientific backed up reason at all.
...but luckily this is only a private site and it have nothing to do with regulations of breeding, only stupid(in my opinion) politics.
...although this is a good database !

Rolf

1) The percentage of heriditary of ED is different for different breeds. I found results of scientific work saying ED is more genetic based than HD. And exactly by wolfdog it seem to "work" - the ED problems seem to appear only by the offspring of two dogs. And their lines seem to be "carriers" of the problems.

For some years we allowed to advertise such dogs here but it is visible new ill dogs (with ED) are offsprings of the ED dogs. Other lines are CLEAR.

So my question to rolf and Runningwolf:

ARE YOU ALSO FO BREEDING DOGS WITH HEART PROBLEMS, EPILEPSY, and STRONG HD (HD-D and HD-E)? Because the same arguments we can use also in this cases...

I'm for the these:
ILL DOG IS AN ILL DOG = NOT FOR BREEDING

Sure you can use them if you want but it is at your responsibility...

I would be very interested in such scientific results, as I personally have been speaking with one of the leading specialists in diagnostics and treatment of joint-/bones-illness and radiography (including PennHIP) in Denmark, his conclution is quit different.

And all dogs from these "clear"lines have official ED-results ? or are you just guessing ?

Ofcourse not ! Do you seriously think it is fair to compare dog with heart problems, epilepsy or strong HD, with dogs who have the mildest degree of ED(0/1) ?

A dog with HD C is in most cases more ill than a dog with ED 0/1, as ED is a term used for many different illnesses in the elbow and many of these illnesss don`t even have slightest degree of influenze on the health of the dog, compared to a dog who have HD C, but you have no problem with HD C, even that it usually have a bigger influenze on the dogs well being ?

By the way, why do you put your self higher than the breedingcommitees of the breeds origin ? I am sure if they thought it were so bad, they could easily add this to the standart, but apparently they don`t ?
Do you feel you have more experience/wisdom, better knowledge and better judgement than the breedingcommitees of the countries of origin, since you choose not to follow their guidelines ?
I`m just curious...

Rolf

Yes, I want. I will say more. According the scientific work the probability to inherit the heart problems or epilepsy is MUCH smaller (or in the cases like secondary epilepsy just = 0%) than the probability to inherit the ED...

Can you write me a GOOD reasons why in this case we should punish dogs with hear problems and epilepsy and make exception for ED?

If you will remove ALL ill dogs, when will you remove dogs with HD B & C, because they are ill too or do you have a special formula which decide how ill a dog must be before it will be removed from the list ?

How do you know this ? dogs who are not tested or dogs who are tested, but do not make the results official, will still be on the list and it is quit possible that many of these dogs will have one or more of the illnesses you mentioned. ...but ofcourse, you don`t need to fear what you can not see :twisted:

So you think it is better not to test the dogs or not to make the results official, then nobody knows and nobody can choose if they want puppies from ill(ED, heart problems, epilepsy and PRA) dogs, as nobody knows if the dog is ill or not ? how do you find this logic, when people still can choose to take a puppy from an ill dog with HD C ? :roll:

But you still advertise for ill dogs with HD C ? :shock:

Massimo and I have no blood relatives, we are friends, if your conclution with the database should stick, I would have a really large family, but in fact I don`t know many people of who my dogs are relatives to their dogs. ...and as Massimo also wrote, we do not always agree, for me it is not necessary for my friends to agree with all my opinions ...I like people who can think for them selves ;-)

And this is exactly what you encourage people to do, by this politics you are laying for the day ...really nice :twisted:

Can you write me a good reason why to make an exception for HD B & C ?
...To use your own words : an ill dog is an ill dog.

Will it be possible to know your scourse of your claimed seintific work or is it just as secret as who admin is ?

Btw. I am still missing some answers from admin on post 49, I`m looking forward to hear what you have to say to these questions.

Greetings Rolf

I will answer all posts later - anyway small corection. I see you do not know what are the levels of HD and ED....

HD-A and HD-B are HEALTHY dogs. HD-A mean excellent hips and HD-B "not quite perfect but healthy".

The descriptions by ED are DIFFERENT. ED-0 is for healthy hips. ED-1 is already DISPLATIC dogs with light displasia.

Simply said:

ED-1 = HD-C

(and not like you think ED-1 = HD-B)

I am very impressed about your knowledge of what I know and what I think :lol:

Explanation from the Danish expert who I mentioned earlier is quite different than your statement :
HD B = light dysplatic, but normally with no real health issue.
ED 1 = light dyspaltic, but normally with no real health issue, depending on which illness who caused this result, as ED is a term used for many different illnesses(not only dysplacia like in HD) in the elbow.

Anyway if you think HD C = ED 1 and ED 1 is an ill dog, why do you allow dogs with HD C to stay on the stud dog list ? :roll:

Greetings Rolf

:lol: Please LEAVE this "expert"... Ask better google... :rock_3

Please tell me your scourse of your claimed sientific work ...and your name, if you are not afraid to stand by your opinions ?

Google is the expert of all experts :roflmao

Greetings Rolf

No ... but still better than person who helps you and make BASIC faults and have no idea about basic things...
I'm sorry but I have no time to explain you everything starting with "What is HD and ED and what are the scores".... :roll: Even if without it the whole talk is for nothing (because exactly the missing information is the reason why the are so many wholes in your argumentation)...

I will stand by my opinions and public my scources of sientific work, you have`nt done any of that so far, so please show us some credibility of your statements and show your "face" or stop your useless accusations against my scources of sientific work.

I did not ask you to explain "what is HD and ED scores" I know what this already from an expert who is NAMED, that seems to be more than you are able to do.

Greetings Rolf

when i mas buy new dog, I better buy puppy from HD C one parent but not ED 1. Why? this is explaine in this forum, but I saw, You not wish this understand

Ok, you're right.

Now can someone answer the other question?

I do not understand the sense of comparison between HD and ED. Those Problems are governed by a different gene control, HD a polygenism, ED a dominant gene. Different is the criterion for the choice of stallion for the two problems. The value of a stallion HD C depends on the outcome of the entire litter, the descendants, and halfsiblings and ancestor. HD C stallion with his brother is HD D, his halfsibilings is HD E can not be viewed in the same way that HD C stallion from a litter where all the brothers are HD A, whose parents come from good litters. While all dogs with ED 1 to be considered in the same way.

Maybe, if I quote and paste what is wrote on OFFA they will have no more excuse to say " no it isn't, my vet say or my vet told or I saw it in a pallestry for breeder".

And princially, different of HD that I can avoid completly with correct suplement EVEN IN A DOGS GENETICALLY AFFECTED, in ED it didn't happen.

As I told before and as now you all can read by OFFA, the metod of judge HD is completly different of the metod which judge ED, those ills are different, the part is tooks works different and are different, its simply impossible to even compare the two.

And again here, we talk about the huge hereditability of this ill.

Who still have doubts, its only took what I wrote before and put togheter with what is wroted here, and i'm sure, will have no more doubts.

As we have at moment few cases of ED problems in the breed, as those dogs mainly don't comes from "rare" lines, not have why preserve ED in breeding spreading the problem in a breed that have a small genetic pool.

So far ED knowledge seems to be new for CzW breeders, as its not tested in some other breeds ( which didn't means they're not affected).
If we took out all dogs without results, the stud dog list will be really small as some dogs are already too old to receive another anesthesie for make this exam (as wolfdogs are not such easy with anesthetics), so, the best way would be put a borderline between the dogs that need to be checked for enter in the database, dogs born in 2007 half/end will have their hips and elbows checked in this year, the ones who born before it probably already had make the check, so, the best will be dogs born in 2008 foward only be accepted in stud list with ED results, and the others remain even without it.

Here is a link of the veterinary association that works on genetic orthopedic deseases in dogs, luckily it is already in English. http://www.grsk.org/Fluckiger_Scorig.pdf
The definition of B in literature written of some of the inventors of the FCI-Systhem here in Germany is:
Normal hip within the genetic range
In Germany we have B1 and B2, the difference between A2 and B1 is extremly tight and not visible for non-experts.

Ina

In the same way HD can be diagnosed with some different illnes, but what caused is was the bad formation in the joint, acetabulum or femoral head.
The Displasy is what cause those problems, that will be used as signal of the bad formation.
The word displasy means bad formation, so, resuming, its a bad formation that will make the elbow or the hips work wrong, causing some problems that you will find in the X rays.
There is the problem os the comparation between HD and ED, a HD dog can be displasic without have any kind of degeneration, if he will futurelly show it or not are other 500, but a ED dog will only get positive when its already have the degeneration.