Responsible breeding - health
 

just been reading all the posts congratulating the first litter of Czechoslovakian wolfdogs in south America, glad to see mother and puppies are doing well, i see all the mails are from our regular crew on wolfdog.org, the same crew that are very pass remarkable about breeders in uk, about the breed and health problems, yet here we have a dog used with a hip score C , or in uk or Australia C is equal to 26-35, sorry but in uk this dog would never of been in any breeding programme with hip score so high, and before you all start defending any breedings have a look at the average hip score of your breed as a whole,,,, you rabbit on about what needs to be done for the good of the breed, give all info on line about health problems and all the tests we need to do before breeding, but then it seems o.k. if its a friend who breeds useing high hip scored animals, and it is a high score by breed standards, you people never cease to amaze me, there is no excuse for useing this dog in any breedings, so dont patronise me with any jumped up excuses's, i am sick of listening to a load of hypocrites on this forum, now go practice what you all preach and breed healthy dogs, :evil:

hmmm,
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o1066.html
I not see HD ED results.

I am in the same case that Paula, i use a female being A/C, therefore officially C. Paula used her coming standard on a female a relatively healthy line. Now, knowing optics of Paula, who is relatively close to me, I know very well; it will do one followed its pups, as much more it acts of the first range South America!!!! Thus for my part, any hypocrisy!!! and again, congratulation for this first Paula range!!!

now, I include/understand your fear concerning Dysplasie ..... but Solowolf…. for my part, i have much more fear concerning the breedings using this dog as a close ancestor …. http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1167
a little risky to promote a race in a country where the livestock builds itself…. :roll:

you include/understand me Solowolf :rock_3

we have been removed from breeders listings and our flag also removed, from previous posts the uk breeders have been offended and now black listed by moderators on wolfdog.org. we get recognition from uk kennel club within 2 months, we have had the law changed after 6 year fight with authorities, we have all dogs health tested, we have worked hard and earned our place with our beautiful dogs only to be shunned by know it all people on this forum, and you seriously think we will give any information to this web site. we have 3 breeders of pure czechoslovakian wolfdogs in uk and this week sees a forth, we have imported new blood lines from European breeders and more will arrive soon,we only work with serious breeders from Europe who are helping us , not knocking us back and taking the p..s out of us, if half you people had as much fight for the breed as we do in uk we may respect you, over the past 6 yrs myself and Andre tanner have had to move home to protect our dogs, we have had to move them to stop them being siezed by the authorities, we have been threatened with going to jail and heavy fines, but we would not give in, and your people remove us and our countries flag and think we will dissapear, NO CHANCE... it is very obvious that certain peole on this site are anti British, or maybe they can explain to us all on line for the removal, as we have often asked over the past two years with no reply??? so back to the subject if you want healthy dogs then why are C rated hip scores in a breeding programme. and everyone who sent congratulations then must also see nothing wrong with this type of breeding. and i hasen to add these people are the first to slam anyone else outside the circle of friends who does anything untowards in breeding. i rest my case and just hope new owners of any Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs dont get advise on breeding from you lot......

i NOT see HD ED results in Wolfdog.org
and I SEE very problematic linie dogs in your kennel- dog without HD ED with HD E in yours linie.
sorry but Nebulosa have healtest linie and dogs, not You.
I wish have puppy from shes kennel but for You not, when i see big risik for bad HD and others problems.
yes this is me opinion :) but maybe when speak about others people first see who have self. :rock_3

then we have been very lucky so far as no hip scores from our breedings is over 9.thank you for your very knid concern.

what more could one expect from good old wolfin.......

I wish you it there do not have a problem, to see in some generations ...... i hope that you will keep us informed… :rock_3

all this, simply to say to you, before criticizing, lean favours over your work before coming to criticize :rock_3

i love posting this site, the replys will come later as everyone is now looking up the data base to see if they have any E scores in there lines before replying to the posts........suckers

sorry i must dash of to another forum to start another scandel lots of love Pacino

Solowolf, I do not need to consult the base of data to know on which line you work… to you do not be only, and I do not include/understand why stockbreeders work on this line, I do not think that is a good base for the development a race in construction like the wolfhound….

But I understand that you find an answer, normal, it acts of your work, you know self-criticism can be very use :rock_3

I was really waiting someone comment about the HD results of Oskar, even because somethings mey be explained, as probably much more officially C dogs will be used on Brazil, as its common.
Nobody nor even wonder why?
Lets put some points here, Oskar have 100º in each hips, it means that by european rules of evaluation he will be B, as any vet who read it can confirme.
For a male dog here receive A result, if must be REALLY good one, as the veterinarians have the will to avoid the overusing of a male, which is pretty common in imported dogs ( like Oskar) here, and that's why you will meet dogs that have their hips evaluate over the world as A, and received B or C in Brazil.
By the way its good, because only good dogs will be used on breeding, by other side its bad, as some good stud dogs was almost put out of reproduction because they had receive D in our results with 98º in the hips, which will be C in europe, that's why mainly the breed clubs lets the owners/breeder choice if they want send the Hip results for be evaluate in the origin country of the breed in question.

So far I sended the HD of Oskar for be evaluate by Siambieda in Poland, lets wait the official results by there, if be different I will think about put out this C or not, because even Oskar beging a nice dog with excelent character and very interessing line, I don't consider him an exemple of male for the breed, but his line for sure is important to us.
If he will be used again or not, will depend on the hips results of his puppies... evaluated by the brazilian comitee, so you can wait more C dogs in the males. :lol:

The part you forget to remember, is that both dogs have 0-0 in their elbows ( when only the 1 result here can put your dog non-molosser almost out of reproduction, as the vets LOVES this result even in healty dogs, like in displasy), as Jezebeth have A in the OFFICIAL BRAZILIAN RESULTS, so, she really have good hips.

You also foget to say, that of the 9 puppies who born in the J. z peronówki litter, 7 of then have been X rayed with HD A, that all the X rayed puppies of Jolly ( only fell of then didn't have as they don't reach the age or the owners don't need it) the worst result we can meet is B.
Also about the nice HD results of Baron and his decendents, so far I think I can use Jezebeth even with a male which is really HD: C.

But Solowolf, I don't know why did you concern to much about the breed health as you had mate dogs with no ED results at all, as Lynx-Legend van Rijneckerhof and Next Best Thing ---Pacino--- was used withou ANY KIND OF RESULTS, no mention that Brix Bis de Louba tar have no results at all also.
But you see, even it will not be such huge problem if they had comes from a healty line, which they don't.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1360/displa1.jpg

You see, a breeder with small knowledge about genetic already knows, that those dogs can be good breeding animals if the breeder know how to use they and cover only dogs with line for excelent hips, so I ask you, what are you doing? What do you want with breeding, Increasing the HD problems? Or maybe, it happened because you don't mate your females with a nice male after study and choice his line, but with the one you have disponible and easiest as possible.

And what do you want if you have no trusthfull breeding of CzW in your country? You can't guilty the webpage owners and moderators because they had the good sense of took out breeders that like you, make mixes with CzW.
Of course, when appear someone serious that at least breed with PURE dogs, this person will be on database independant of the country.

I can confirm the statement of Paula and add the statement of one of the German specialists in HD, who was one of the persons invented the HD-Xray systhem here and is member of the group working on genetic orthopedic disorders in dogs, he clearly said to me on asking for it that it can be absolutely sensible to use a dog with a C hip of a breed with a genetic small base AS LONG AS YOU TAKE CARE WHICH MATING PARTNER YOU USE AND AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A TIGHT SELECTION ON THE OFFSPRING.
I am sure that Paula will take care of this.

And I also fully agree with Paulas statement about the GB-breeding and will add another point: A breeder that never came further in meeting breeders and dogs than France, Netherlands and surrounding states, that never joined a Clubshow with a specialised judge out of a country of origin and a bonitation with the same should be very, very careful with his judgement about others and first look at his own breeding and doing.

All in all I think we should ignore a wannabe with very few true things to say.

Ina

I would like to believe that all this argue is all about the improve of the race and not about yours “Selves” and yours belly buttons.
And that at the end of the day we all join together arroud the table drinking beer and wine with ours wolfs by our side :)

I really don't understand you...

1) There is nothing wrong and nothing new about using HD-C dogs. Expecially when the result comes from a very strict vet. And the HD-C dog is mated with veary healthy female.
If you like it or not the population of CzW is not big enoguh and in many cases we are using HD-C dogs to protect the gene pool. Of course it will be better to mate only HD-A dogs but in some cases we have to use also dogs with worser results.
Of couse the decision depends on the breeder. I personaly would use a HD-C dog comming from a very heathy line but I already decided several times NOT TO USE a HD-A dog (with HD-Aparents) comming from a line responsible for spread out hip displasia. So please see every case separatly because there are no easy answers.

2) It wonders me why exactly you are writing that OTHER breeders do not pay enough attention to the health. Sorry, but so far we have your litters:

- one litter: 3 generation with only 7 dogs checked of 14 ancestors. Results: 3 x HD-A, 1 x HD-B, 1 x HD-D, 1 x HD-E.
Inbreed done on Gar, Rep and Eta Pohostinstvo CS (HD-D)

- second litter: 3 generation with only 6 dogs checked of 14 ancestors.

- your new so advertised "wolfish arrival" 8): of 14 ancestors only 4 with clear hips (HD-A) and the dog is an inbreed on 5 dogs where 2 are not checked (in this case it is explicable because they are old dogs) but NONE of the others is HD-free!



Paula explained why she is doing her litter (PURE FACTS).
Are you ABLE to do the same and explain us your way of breeding. Because for 100% it is not a way of breeding which can be advertised to other breeders as one where the breeding of healthy dogs is the main goal...

NONE of the UK breeders have been offended. The steps were done because of missing responsibility of some breeders who we selling the puppies telling they are FULLY registered and FULLY recognized while CzW is not registered by KC till now. Simply said - we can not advertise puppies which are "non-breeds" for FCI.

If it is true and the breed will get recognition from KC the breeders who are KC-registered will return on the breeders list.

WITH ONE EXCEPTION: there will be NO ADVERTISING for breeders of any kind of mixes and nonbreeds with pedigrees.

We do not advertise here kennels:

- which mix and register Saarloos-Czechoslovakian Wolfdog mixes

- which use lines where appear the offsprings of the mix
Dark (priv. Locchi) who was registered by ENCI with the false parents names. And it doesn't matter in ANY GENERATION the dog will appear

- which own and use for breeding the nonbreeds know as Mutaras (Ave Lupo ---Mutara--, Audrey Lupo ---Mutara--- and Ares Lupo ---Mutara---)

- which own and/or use for breeding any nonbreeds and their offsprings coming from the S- Passo del Lupo litter: Selly Passo del Lupo, Sakim Passo del Lupo, Sam Passo del Lupo, Sangria Passo del Lupo, Sanika Passo del Lupo and Seiko Passo del Lupo.


REASON: There is no advertising and soon the future puppy buyers will be warned not to buy any puppies from this lines and kennels because the litter S-Passo del Lupo, Dark and Mutaras were officially BANNED by the Slovak Club and recognized as NON-BREEDS!!!!
Because it is not possible to count with the national kennel clubs and for example ENCI seems nothing wrong in registering mutts as purebreed dogs it was needed to make additional steps and protect the CzW genepool.

So NONE of these dogs and NONE of their offsprings will EVER be registered by the breed club in Slovakia (and also Czech breed club) and it will be not ALLOWED to import or breed ANY offsprings of these dogs EVEN if the nonbredd will be in 20-, 30 or 100- generation.

We will also not advertise ANY kennels which mix Czechoslovakian Wolfdog with other breeds or wolves and advertise the puppies as "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs" which is so common in UK...

:ehmmm Just a small question on the above, way are this dogs in the CsV database at all ??? when they are not of the CsV breed ???

Very best regards / Mikael

I think it is good that you can find them there. They have been used for breeding or may be in future. As long as they are in the database it is possible to find out the origin of their offspring.

Przemek (or Margo), you forgot Fenrir Foresta Incantata.

So...a quick question...not to cause any problems, or start arguments...only from my ignorance...and "education":stupido

I am aware of the PDL S-Litter and Mutara project...I was not aware of Dark...is this dog also a mix, or were there only some problems with his registration?

I'm only curious because I saw this litter advertised in which Dark appears in the pedigree:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/litters/1051.html

When the Slovakian club doesn't recognize a pedigree, does that mean the FCI won't register the dog/litter, or can this line be registered in other countries?

Somebody Knows the real origin of Dark, if these are wrong?
Thank you

Is too much "black things" in breeding of our wolfdogs. But if don´t exist DNA tests for all dogs, we can do nothing against it.....
Ask slovak club, they are garant of breed..............:(
Or: you can ask during world show in Bratislava, there will be time on wolfdogmeeting.

WOW...what a sharp eye!!
now also "les plaines de l'est" must have their litters censored!
Witchhunt!!
:evil::evil::evil:

Slovak club has NO power on pedigrees outside Slovakia...
and if you look on the stats page:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/stats.html
during the last 3 years slovakia produced only 1.57% of total CSW dogs...
so they have practically NO power at all.

By the way Margo...I wonder if we could see number of dogs born by year and by kennel (the most active ones...) we could see some very interesting numbers... big wolfdog producers...

Please do not forget we are breeding PUREBREED dogs whos origin is known from the beggining. There is no place for mixes breeders. If someone is not able to breed PUREBREED dog such person MUST be hunted...

Why? Expecially because of such cases like the litter from kennel "les plaines de l'est" who is now just a viction that there was no information about the mixes published officialy... The breeder buyed a female of Italian origin and was SURE it is a PUREBREED Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (V'wayta von den Wächter der Krone) and had NO IDEA about the cheated pedigree... Everybody in Italy knows Dark is a wolfdog imported from USA and not a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. And none of the serious breeders was using its blood... But nobody else knew it.... I think it should be stopped already in that time... BUT how to ask Italian CzW Club if exactly main officals breed or own nonbreeds there? :lol:


ANYWAY: As a Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs breeder I'm really happy about the new rules given by the new Wolfdog.org-Admin... Maybe it will finally stop the mutt-breeding and the non-breeds will no more spread around in the population. I really don't want to be surprised by the fact when slovak breeding comittee will not allow me to cover my female or bonitate her in Slovakia only because her father would come from one of the "hidden" Italian /or French or ..../ mixed lines... No - for me it is not a witch hunt but smething which should be done already YEARS AGO...

You are right... Outside Slovakia and Czech Republic the breeders are allowed to cheat, register dogs with falsed pedigrees, make unknown mixes and use this non-breeds for breeding... BUT SLOVAKIA is the country of origin and I think they choosed the right wayx because at least there the lines will be CLEAR... free of blood of unknown dogs... At least there we will be able toi cover our females and be sure there puppies will be not "mutts with pedigrees".... :lol:

You are wrong...

Look on Slovakia - BUT NOT on the number of dogs born in Slovakia but look on their INFLUENCE (two of YOUR own dogs are not from Hungary and Germany but are PURE Slovak dogs :lol:)... In the fact most of the puppies born in Poland, Germany, Hungary, Holland and France are PURE Czecho-Slovakian lines (read: with SURE MIXES-FREE pedigrees).

Now compare it to the influence of Italian dogs? Sure there biggest amount of dogs are born in Italy but surprising exactly Italian dogs have NO INFLUENCE on the European population of CzW. Sure people from abroad breed with Italian dogs but they use SURE CzechoSovakian-lines (for example Arimminum kennel)... The only kennels which use the "true Italian dogs from kennel breeding nonbreeds" are 1 kennel in France and 1 kennel in Czech Republic...Why...? The answer you can find in Hankas post... because others are AFFRAID - because of the Mutara mixes and unhonest breeders the people from Czech Republic and Slovakia are simply AFFRAID to cover or import ANY dogs from Italy... Because of 2-3 NON-breed loves and mixes breeders from Italy surffer the other REALLY GOOD BREEDERS....

So the "rule" has it's exceptions... for the poor innocent breeders who were cheated. Good to know!
However von den Wächter der Krone is a french breeder who used Dark.
des Hurlements de l'Ankou is a french breeder who made a litter from the daughter of dark and "les plaines de l'est" is a french breeder who purchased a puppy from "des hurlements". The female was not "of itailan origin"...

Must quote you here i'm afraid...so right!





I understand your point and in some parts I agree.
I just want to underline that the first S-litter was born in 2006.
One cannot accuse ALL dogs just because of One litter.
I am owner of a great CSW with clear CSW origins, and I am extreemply proud of him, healthy and strong as not many others, even though he comes from a blacklisted breeder for wolfdog.org , passo del lupo.

I am really in accord with the administrator and with margo on everything that concerns the mutaras,ibrid,etc...

However returning to the matter hip dispalsia I would want to submit to you breeders an important reflection of juridical character.

After a consequential litter from a dog c, (in the c there is presence of light displasia according to the classification f.c.i.)in head to the breeder it subsists or less an obligation of information on the possible consequences on the pups?

And' true that can be born a pup with the displasia from healthy parents and in this case there are no responsibility from the breeder, but if a pup is born with the displasia from a litter with a displasic parent (beginning from the c) there are responsibility? Must will be us a reimbursement?
And if the breeder has kept silent the presence of hip displasia does he proceed to reimbursement?

I have listen different lawyers, and I have ask an opinion to the official reader centers, for now it would seem that (beginning from the displasia o grades c), for the Italian right, in absence of information from the breeder the buyer that discovers to have a displasic dog have the right to partially get back the paid price for the pup.

:rock_3I don't think so because I see the litter advertisment dissapeared... So there are no exceptions even for "friends" and victims...

We should ask French people but so far I know the breeder is from Italy - Alviani Tagliarino... Anyway it DOESN'T matter if he is French or Italian or Chinese breeder... ;-) One thing is sure: there are some problems in France population "THANKS TO" the nonbreed offsprings from Villa Doria kennel who was the owner of the mix Dark "---(priv. Locchi)---". But also serious problem with HD because of the offsprings of CAMEI ze Smaragových vodopádů - a female who was bred despite of VERY strong HD. In the bonitation in France we had a very young dog comming from French kennel who is using this line... I NEVER saw a puppy with such serious problems with movement... and I saw many dog which had HD....:roll:

I FULLY agree with you. We can not ACCUSE all PDL dogs because of one litter. And we can not ACCUSE all Italian breeders because of three who do not understand what "puredog breeding" means... But at the moment the attitude is so... I think the new steps done by the new admin will change the situation - it ALL dogs will be included and ALL suspicius "nonbreed" lines will be marked the breeders will be no more affraid of using dogs from France, Italy or Germany because it is will be CLEARly visible if the lines is "nonbreed-free".... :p It seems like witch hunt but on the other side it will remove the argument against dogs from the listed countries given by some breeders in the origin countries...

Giuseppe, I believe it depends on what agreements you have with the breeder.
He cannot guarantee displasia in ANY way. HD C is "light" displasia.
I am lucky...my first dog is super healthy and I made a verbal agreement (worth more than any written contract!) with both the other breeders whom I trust 100%.
I am sure Paula will inform the new owners about risks and health conditions of parents.
I don't know her at all but from what she writes on the forum I have no doubts about her reliability.
Massimo

It depends on the country... we discussed it also in Poland because officialy you do not need to make any x-rays and it is common some breeders check the dogs but hide all with worser results. Simply said - if someone in Poland is breeding with dogs without HD-results or you have any of them in the pedigree you can be almost sure the dogs are displatics...

So for the law dogs are like thigs. If you breed with heathly dog OR/AND the owner is informed about the results of the parents, the breeder is not responsible for the results of the puppy. If the dogs are not tested or the results are hidden it is like selling "possible defective product". And the new owner can ask some money back.

But as I told - it can depend on the country... Anyway also the new owner is responsible for the hips of the puppy... And I can really imagine a case where the BREEDER will sue the new owner when the parents were healthy and the puppy is not... :rock_3 Because depending on the sourse sometimes it is listed that 60% of the dispasia depends of the feeding and the conditions in which the puppy is living after leaving the kennel.... ;)

Well, the issue is very interesting, but to me seems much more complicated. I have some doubts and questions (without easy answers):
What if the breeder matches two CSVs with A or B results (or A/B) and the pup gets C or worse just because the lines of both parents were "contaminated" with poor HD genes? (e.g. like in the case mentioned earlier). Should the breeder be claimed responsible if a pup got a bad HD result? If yes - to how many generations back were it to be traced? Besides, how could the owner prove it was the breeder's fault and not his own, or just bad luck?

Might not in court the breeder act ignorant of the ancestors' HD results? Wolfdog.org is not an official site and the breeders have no obligation to check the dogs HD results here. Are there in your countries any formal registers, consultation of which should/could be made obligatory before the match is approved by the authorities?

Is in any country's legal system knowlege on genetics required from the breeder? If not, don't you guys think it should be codified by FCI that everybody who wants to register a kennel should take a course and/or pass exam in basic genetics? I would also add an exam in elementary ethics and commercial law. Not to secure ethical behaviour of the breeders (I'm not naive:rock_3), but so that they could not claim later that they didn't know what was ethical/legal and what wasn't!

Every potential buyer has a great chance here, on this site, to find information about the breed, particular dogs, etc. But still, some basic knowledge about dogs and breeding is needed to be able to understand what he/she reads. Some busy people do not have spare time/energy to invest into such research (or dont even realize how important it is) and get talked into buying 'high-risk' pups. Who is to be blamed if a person gets a pup prone to develop HD (or other illness which could be anticipated if the breeder was honest and knowledgeable) and his only fault was that he trusted a nice person who introduced himself as a 'breed expert':twisted:?

And last, but not least... Even the most honest, ethical and knowledgeable breeder can make a mistake. Breeders in a way play God, and every match and litter carries risk. Despit all the good will, responsibility, caution, etc. the faulty gene combination may occur all of a sudden or other factors can appear. I wonder how many breeders in your countries are insured against such cases and if insurance systems for breeders exist at all.

"Everybody in Italy knows Dark"

Sorry Margo but nobody in Italy know Dark!
Because nobody (or nearly nobody) know Rinauro!

As I said in the last post...I was not trying to start fights...or arguments...or problems. It was honestly a question of curiosity - and that is all. And yes, I do look closely at each litter - for me it is very interesting how the breed evolves, and why breeders make the breeding decisions they do - the decisions made now - good or bad - are the ones that will impact the dogs we own in the future. I was not trying to make a judgement...only to learn. I am very new to all of this, and also very far removed from being as involved as those living in Europe are able to be - I guess I still have some naive questions. I do apologize for any problems I may have caused. :roll:

Marcy

Not only in a litter which you have a C parent, but in all litters the breeder must warn the owners about the possibility of HD and ED, and about the importance of made those exams, even if the dog will not be used on breeding.
As breeder we can never forget that HD and ED are poligenic, and we must to know if our dogs are passing or not such problem to their puppies.
Its for nothing in selection terms, you have an A dog that only made displasic dogs upper than C, and put out of breeding a C dog which had made as worst results a C puppy.

We need see what the veterinary studies say about displasy, a C dog can be mated with nice females which have nice hips as results and line, its the common sense, the same thing works for the ED 1 results.
HD C dogs as ED 1 dogs can have normal life when this result is the truth one.

By veterinary etic, all mediun/big sized animals must made the HD and ED results before mate, C and 1 dogs must be mated with better hip dogs.

So, only by this we can see that the breeder will be completly responsible for the problem IF he had mate dogs with no results or dogs not allowed to be used ( D and E/ 2 and 3), as if he mate two dogs with the same bad results ( C x C / 1 x 1).

Suppose that in a very special case a non-allowed dog must be used on breeding, the future owners must be warned about it, and , in my view, those pups must be donated with a very restrict contract.

But if you made everything all right, according to the etic, with a huge genetic research in the lines used, and even in this way born a puppy with problems, who is responsible for it?
Well.. its the poligenic problem, and the main question is that no one was responsible for it, nor the breeder and much less the owners, so, there enter the common sense again and the serious work.

The first thing you cannot forget, is that this owners will have a lot of expenses with the displasic dog, he will need to gave medicaments and , in the worst cases, make a cirurgie, its a suffer for anyone who loves their dog.
You, as breeder must be sure that this dog will not be used at breeding.

Normally here, the breeders enter in accord with the owners, giving him the possibility of choise another pup, or receive back the exactly same ammount of money he paid in the dog. But for this, the owner must proove to the breeder that the displasic dog was neuthered, so, it solve both problems.

On the subject of Hip Dysplasia, I have a question regarding hip scores. I'm curious how the ratings of A, B, C, etc relate to the US scores of "Excellent", "Good", "Fair", "Borderline", "Mild", "Moderate", and "Severe"? Here's a link that explains the differences:

http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html

I have a hard time relating to a debate on breeding and hip scores when it I can't relate it to the OFA scoring that I'm used to seeing. :)

At the bottom of the site you quoted there is a plain conversion into all systems used :lol:

HA! Oh god, I feel like an idiot. :lol: Guess I need to learn to scroll ALL the way down!!.

Thanks. :)

This is the actual listing of the German Association of Judges on orhtopedic genetic deseases.
http://www.grsk.org/hd_vergleich.htm

You excuse me, I don't have rather anything against the nebulosa litter, the male seems to me the typical case of “c” that absolutely we can use with a very clean blood line,probably i'bad express myself and I have not specified that there are not connection with the litter in matter



mine is exclusively a juridical matter in italy and in many consequential juridical systems(derivated from the Roman right) it speaks of "dolus bonus "when our product is exaltated in the limits allowed by the laws ;the limits are more flexible soo ..I can say to have a beautiful tall dog with long legs with perfect hair even if a lot of of these things are not true, everything it reenters in the physiological exaltation of my product.

It is a completely different thing when with fraudulent attitude I say the true or little fellow to give information on the pathologies of my dog, in this case it deals with "dolus malus", here therefore that I wonder me, and I invite you to a reflection on thing it needs to tell the future owners regarding the hip displasia.

of course from clean and perfect dogs can born a displasic puppy

the problem is .. when we can say that we have two healthy dogs? this is possible only in absence of displasia and therefore with two dogs a or b, because as all of you know ...beginning from the c the displasia is present (even if in light form)

It is not only ethic problem, it is lately true in italy we don't know anymore' what is the ethics, for this we will made a juridical and certain confinements, to start to trace a road to avoid that the results were hidden or not declared, perhaps to the foreign countries it is less necessary you are very more scrupulous but I believe is correct to open on the subject a serious discussion (even if I have perhaps, mistaken thread ) also because if it is true that a dog C is able to live a healthy and normal life it is true also that his commercial value won't be that of a dog A or B.

This is exactly my question! What should the law say in case the parents are beautiful and have A or B HD but BOTH in their lines carry strong displastic genes which can cumulate and in result lead to C (or worse) pups? How far can legal regulations codify such cases?

Don't be pessimistic... :lol: By ethics I mean simple issues like telling the potential owners about the pup's parents health and character problems, dealing with (pre)payments, etc. In fact ethical behviour is the best investment in the future, because a satisfied customer will bring more clients to business and a dissatisfied one will discourage even more.:rock_3

Yes , but the breeders are not scientists, and as you have already said a certified database it doesn't exist and not even an obligation of investigation about the ancestors, therefore the juridical obligation of breeders are limited only to the health of their own dogs

Obviously the juridical obligations must always be distinguished by ethical and by the conscience of good breeders, in fact if I have a healthy dog with so many relatives displasic it will be my I spell to join him with caution or not to do him really to reproduce