Margo:

It says at introduce of SWH that : "he selected a she-wolf ("Fleur" , a European wolf, that he bought from the zoological garden of Blijdorp in Rotterdam) as one of his ancestor parents for his breed and the german shepherd "Gerard van Fransenum" and that "Fleur" originated from the sibirian branch of the European wolf."

People always said that one difference between saarloos and CsV is wolves, European and Karpathian, (i know there is also lot more differences too)
and my thought was that Karpathian wolf is different than "european" how is it really?

-Suski

Its only simlification. Of course, that exist more regional subspecies, which are different in some typical details. Sure its different wolf, which lives in eg. Spain and wolf from slopvakian mountains.
If you look to some literature, then you will found, that "european" or "carpatian" wolf are not really officially names. Its only regional definition of subspecies.
But through "canadian" and "european" wolf are same species, have after thousand years separatelly development and different livin conditions many specify and seriously differences. Then by SWH and CsW is the same.

Thank you , Pavle. But, still mystery, Margo says:" ancestors are Canadian or American Wolves. The most famous is here Saarloos Wolfhound" but breed standard says other. Which we should believe, Margo, or standard? :cheesy:

Why i am asking so much by now, we have meeting next month where we should show out differences of CsV and SWH, and difference in history too....

-Suski

Standard is sometimes text of good wishes. :mrgreen:

But the truth is visible: Saarloos W. look different than European Wolves, they have different colours (there are no red, black or white European Wolves but this colous is typical for American Wolves). European Wolves have only brown, light amber or yellow eyes. CanadianW. can have also blue eyes. Also as said the ears are different. Simply said: typical Saarloos (and not CzW-Saarloos crosses) look exactly like Canadian or American Wolves.

And for the end text written by NEDERLANDSE VERENIGING VAN SAARLOOSWOLFHONDEN:
"Although trainability was not improved, this breed was recognized in 1975, six years after Leendert Saarloos's death. This rare Dutch breed is easier to train, more amenable to urban life, and more responsive than the Czech Wolfdog. This is probably due, in part, to its longer history of selective breeding, but also because the pack-oriented Canadian Timber Wolf, rather than the lone-hunting Carpathian Wolf, has been included in its genetic background. The Saarlooswolfhond can be used as a small game hunter. It is rarely seen outside the Netherlands. The Saarlooswolfhond club is almost completely unavailable outside of Holland. This is because the the club wants to better control the breeds breeding and limits the breed to a single 500 mile radius."

Sure nobody believes them that Saarloos is "amenable to urban life" that CzW :mrgreen: But the part about Canadian Timber Wolf is true for sure.

And next text (by saarlooswolfhund.de):
"Saarloos' conception was a brown Europese Wolfhond!"
but later there is written:
"A neighbour of L. Saarloos had owned a black male Timberwolf, so that there is the supposition that this wolf also came to the breeding insert. Actually the current Saarloos wolfdogs see much more similar to American Timberwolf than the European wolf, that originated both "Fleurs" from . Also the good social behavior speaks in favour for the Timberwolf. But the NVSWH sais no incross of a Timberwolf..."

I'm sure NVSWH hides the true because even layman can see the Timber Wolves (Canadian WoOlves) are the true ancestors of Saarloos Wolfhound...

Ok, that i was thought too. But, see, what is written black and white, it's like a bible for some people;
"Because in standard and history of SWH says so"
for me is no big matter about text, i can daily see the difference of these breeds at home. of course, standard should be the biggest matter as breeding a dogs, but text written in internet or so, should not.

but thanks anyway, Margo. :D

* and what i just read..?: "Dutch breed is easier to train, more amenable to urban life, and more responsive than the Czech Wolfdog. " ????
OHHOH. :shock: Says owner of 3 SWH and 3 CsV, and will go out immediatelly test this written text by Dutch people... :mrgreen:

-Suski

Hi, all,

The answer to this question is quite simple (!).

To avoid any misunderstanding, you need to contact Mrs Cornelia Keizer, who own all original notebooks written by Mr Saarloos, and ask for a copy of it! Then, there will be no more doubt!

Philippe

Maybe you can also ask Marijke Saarloos (the daughter of Leendert Saarloos)

She has lots of info about the SWHbreed :cheesy:
Her whole life she did live with CsW's. And I think she has more experiences with these dogs then anyone else in this forum:wink:

(And for your info Corrie and Marijke are not members of the dutch NVSWH)

greetings,
mijke

I want to stress the fact that both CWD and SWH descends from european wolves. Pictures of the wolves excists and there is no doubt about it.

The difference between those two dog-breeds is partly caused by the very different shepherd-ancestors. CWD descends from short-legged and rather small shepherds of very active working-lines compared to the leggy and much older lines of shepherds behinds the SWH.

We should not forget this because todays SWH carries a valuable conformation from the earliest alsatians, while CWD carries valuable characteristics from the eastern working-lines. This is important information in the process of breeding and selecting and also in showing this two breeds.

fenris

It's not a fact but only your assumption. Let's look at one of the characteristics of CWD and SWH: eyes.

German Shepherd - brown eyes
European Wolf - amber eyes
CWD - from brown to amber eyes
SWD - brown, amber and BLUE eyes

A miracle? Just a clarification: there are canadian wolves with blue eyes.

Let's look at different characteristic: the mask

CWD - sometimes without the mask but usually like by european wolves
SWD - the shape of the mask more similar to the one you can see by nordic breeds: malamutes or husky



And you want to say that in Holland there are blue eyes German shepherds? :twisted: Then I have to admit the difference between Dutch and Czech GSD is anormous. I saw in Czech Republic no GSD with blue eyes. ;)

Please give me an example of a blue eyed SWD (or a wolf), I have never seen one.
I am eager to learn - being curious.

http://www.wolfcountry.net/information/WolfPub.shtml:
"Most wolf pups are born with blue eyes, which gradually change to a yellow-gold color by eight to sixteen weeks, though sometimes their eyes can change color much later. Occasionally, a mature wolf will be found with blue eyes."

http://www.ksu.edu/biology/pob/genetics/:
"Wolves are sometimes observed to have black coats and blue eyes."

As for these quotes: it was published on US websites so we can assume that they speak about their local subspecies of wolves since there are no black european wolves nor did I find publications about wolves in Europe with blue eyes.

I didn't find any photo of SWD with blue eyes on Internet (there are not many photos at all on the net) but I saw already such in reality. However I wasn't interested about it. Next time I take a photo :)

According to wolf-biologist and the leading expert on wolf L. David Mech wolves have amber to yellow eyes that can shine yellowish-green. But NEVER blue.

Saarloos can have almond to yellow or even a grayish color of the eyes.

There are white German Sheperds and thats the other part of the Saarloos.Where the Brown colour comes from,I don't know.
The only color that a Saarloos eye may have is yellow,only when the dogs is older than he is more amber.When they have brown eyes it's a defect.Everybody knows that there are people that do wrong things,with Saarloos and CZW.
2 of my dogs are standing on pictures with CzW's and from a distance you see no difference in colours.

I don't know where you have taken the translation from the de Dutch Breeding club,but I never heard anyone saying in holland that the SWH is better to train as a CzW.The SWH is not a working dog like the CzW.
The SWh is a calm dog,who is very social with dogs and people.

I heard a lot of things here on this page,what doesn't conform to the SWh,I think there are more cross breedings outside Holland as we ever thaucht. :(

Thake a look at the pages and see old wolfdogs from the Saarloos time end the other page with new foto's.Some of the dogs look not 100% standaard,but most of them have Yellow eyes :wink:

http://www.saarlooswolfhonden.nl/
http://www.clubs.nl/community/default.asp?clubid=41096
http://www.clubs.nl/community/default.asp?clubid=44239

Gr. Christa

How many Saarloos are there in the Netherlands and all over the world?

Gr. Ina

Difficult to say,because everybody knows,that the co-operation between the breedingclubs is not good.
There are 2 populations.The one from the dutch breed club and outside.
most of the dogs outsite the Netherlands comes from dutch breeders.
Only the last 4 years there are more breeders outside netherland.
Corrie Keizer is also a dutch breeder.

But if you take a good look to the old pictures(that are all Kilstroom dogs)than you see that a lot of dogs of this time don't even look like the pictures.And the breedingstandaard is made 30 years ago,so thats how the SWH must like,I think???

Gr. Christa

Hei, Ina! I get this kind of Info, as i asked same thing:

in Gemany there are over 100 . in Swiss there are ca. 20, france there are over 100, in Belgium there are 100 and in NL 500-600 and then a few dogs in another lands , in Finland momentally 11

Suski

Thank you,

one year ago a breeder told me there are even less but he didn´t know exact counts eather. That means there are not more than 1000 dogs worldwide, that breed in at least 2 clubs that don´t talk to each other and don´t exchange dogs as far as I am informed. I don´t think the red ones are crossbreeds and I didn´t see a blue eyed one but I think it´s possible they occure now and then because that´s absolutely normal in such small populations. I know some crossbreeds with Czechoslow. Wolfdogs, these are not the red ones and to be honest I think without them the breed will die out but that is not my concern. But I don´t know if there have been any other crossbreeds with other breeds.


Ina

Some time ago I visited some US sites related to wolves and wolf behaviour.
As far as I remember some of the sites showed wolves/wolf dogs with blue eyes.

Absolutely agree. I buy every year a calendar with wolves pictures and every year is there some with blue eyes as well.

Wolfdogs can have bleu eyes,what do think of a mix with an Husky?
There are also Indian dogs with bleu eyes.

Gr. Christa

Hmmmm......While reading your answer I recalled my idea for a bigger article. Comparision between Saarloos and CzW is one of the most popular topics. I had an idea to write an article consisted of three parts:
- comparison of the exterier
- comparison of the character
- some words written by people which own CzW AND Saarloos. Or by people which have good contact with both breeds.

I think it will be not only interesting but also important for future puppy buyers. Both breed are different and CzW sometimes buy people which sould buy a Saarloos because it fits better to their needs and there are also people for which CzW would be a better solution...

Someone interested...? :)

Hello, Margo!

It is just under work..;)
But. I can't promise it before begin of next year, cause i just do BIIIG work with it (slowly a book..) It is very interesting, and hopefully as many as possible will tell own comments, but i guess facts need to listed also, not only opinions. As you know i have momentally 3 dogs from both breeds at home, and hopefully puppies from saarloos this year also.
So, i can help, but not just at this moment.
Is this how urgent??? :wink:

Suski

No problem - it is not urgent.... WE have a lot of time to colect info and photos... :)

And be sure I'll help you!!

Very often I have woldog intersted people/guests and have to explain a lot about the differences :mrgreen:

And always I advise them to visit not only breeders but also owners of these breeds. And of course in Holland it is more easy to arrange this :cheesy:

greetings,
Mijke

So, Mijke, can you do it with me?

-Suski

Of course, I'll share information with everybody who want this !:D

As I did tell you before in a private mail, I am doing my best to arrange more for you before next weekend! But I did not get yet the response I did wish :oops:

greetings
mijke

I think Mijke,you are the right person to help with this.You 've seen a lot of both breeds.An not only from 1 breeder and that is good,because not only the type from 1 breeder is different from another,also the character.
And Suski have also different types,maybe you must have a SWH from the dutch breeding club,so you been complete ;-))

Gr. Christa

Ok, Christa! :cheesy: Do you know anybody could help me with that?
I mean to get dog from the club. :roll: I promise to survive myself with payment of 50.000€, if i use it later for breeding. 8)

Suski

I would love to see a write up of the comparasins of the two breeds. Please e-mail me or post them.

Thanks.

the type of wolf is not mentioned in the original manuscripts just by its name only, i have full copy of original manuscripts written by Mr Saarloos,,,,,,,pacino

do you mind sharing.. Bertus has a rather large collection, the nvswh does, marijek offcoarse does and corrie does...
would be interesting, think specially to bertus, to have your collection as well, might complete the picture

no they dont exchange dogs as one club is breeding pure Saarloos the other has greated numerous health problems via cross breeding, such as heart , eye, epilepsy and dwafs,, so INA you now admit you know of some cross bred Saarloos and CWS, and you ask me to prove what i say on line is true,,???, to make statement that Saarloos may die out if not for these cross breedings is absolute and utter nonsense i have never heard of such a load of trash in my life, and you are on this site giving advice on something, to cross breed is one thing to register the cross breeds is outragous, http://www.saarlooswolfdog.com/Pedig..._Did=365&Lid=1
all on this post have a look at this Saarloos Zazi zen ,,or is it, if it is i think we should all give up,, the father is called SENNA,,funny the owner of Senna made statement to say dogs has never been used at stud,, ever,,, now go into wolfdog.org and see Chrop z kladenske zare WHOS YOUR DADDY, so Zazi zen is registered as a Saarloos,,,,,,,so if people do want to compare the two breeds please make sure you do ask the right people and see the correct dogs,,,,,,,INA if you have as you say you have any facts of cross breedings and they are registered dogs i ask you now to report it to the FCI,, these people are destroying a breed and if you have seen any of the dwarfs Saarloos you will do it for the dogs if nothing else,,,,,r winder not ammused at all,,,,have sent copy of your post to dutch breed club secretary

i have same copy as Marijek and Corrie but if you want copy send address by private mail and i will burn cd for you regards pacino

thank you

my adress is nanouk immers
zwanewater 1
2715 bg
zoetermeer
NL

I will be willing to pay costs for shipping !

that information is a little outdated... look at the database, tunka troy timberly, hohene, lupus ljarkow, diesel, solo all NVSWH used outside their population...not eveyone is stuck in the past..some are looking forward rahter than being stuck in otherones quarrels that are in the past

Most of the posts on this topic are allready several years old, so I just HOPE you have done your homework about wild wolves within these years, and learned that there are NO adult pure wolves with blue eyes; it is a dog trait and usually seen in wolfdogs that are mixed with Huskies.
I truly hope none of you base your knowledge of wolves on what you see in calenders or at some random internet pages. :|
In this crazy world there are zoos that have wolfdogs as "wolves", and I have books about wolves, that show pictures of Northern breeds & wolfdogs. And even a book about dog breeds, that shows Alaskan Malamute with blue eyes (a heavy built show type Husky in the pic ;-) ).
There are lots of false information out there, but people who have really done their homework and research about wolves & canines overall, also know WHERE to look for the CORRECT information.
I must say I find it quite worrying that there are breeders of wolfdogs (FCI recognized and non-recognized) who obviously lack even basic knowledge of wolves.:shake


The "forest brown" coloring of the SWD has always been a question mark to me; -were it came from? I am still wondering... and searching the answer to this.
Genetically it must be similar to the "liver" color, which is caused by a gene that makes the eumelanin pigment cells, that normally produce black pigment, to produce "reddish" pigment instead. Atleast concluding the lighter pigmentation also on nose & lips etc (not only hair), which would not be the case if the reddish color would be phaeomelanin (it affects only on hair color, not skin).
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net...cs/pigment.htm
Huskies have similar color with white markings like the SWD.
http://www.huskycolors.com/red.html
But if SWD has never been mixed with Huskies, and originates only from cross breeding of GSD & wolf, then the gene must have come from the GSD (there are liver colored GDS's, but they are quite rare and considered as fault in the FCI breed standard) and is combined with the gene for white markings;
in other words: the parts of the coat (& each sigle hair) that would "normally" be black, are liver colored, but the white markigns are the same.

I'd suppose the liver color in GSD is that rare, that the lines & individuals carrying the gene are pretty well known?
I might be wrong though, I'm no expert on the GSD lines. But if I'm right, then I'd assume it would be possible to track the individual in SWD history that introduced the liver gene into the breed. Otherwise I would not exclude the possibility that there have been cross breeding with some other breed(s) too, carrying the liver color gene. :roll:

I look forward to some genetic studies about wolf & wolfdog breeds colors. 8)

As long as this thread is alive again, I would like to say that it is circulated in studies that black coats and blue eyes in wolves are likely vestiges of prior crosses with dogs, whether known & purposely done by man or not.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/02/blackwolves/

These are traits that have been reintroduced into wolf population.