it is used as support (not for constant use)

Yes, Mijke wrote it absolutelly correct and must be stressed "specific training". Its mean not using by normally obedience. Electrical collar ist mostly (exc. IPO) using for correct the education faults, character problems (hunting instinct) etc.

Perfect!
Remembering for who say that eletric collar "hurts", commonly the eletric colar are tested on the TREINER first before be used on the dog, it really not hurt at all, but gives a strange felling on the neck.
In official working trials and even in dogshows eletric collars and needle collars are forbiden, normally it's only acepted collars without strangler or with the strangler "grasped" at working trials, that not means we cannot use it for training.

And used by the wrong hands :evil:, you can also destroy a dog :(.
It is very handy, but also very ubusing if you do not use it correct.
And that is just what you can see lately a lot in the dogsport :roll:.

Groette Martine.

Martine, read my 2 last comments, I said it. I dont like only the people, who said generally, that electric or needel collar are bad. Its not true, because in some specific situations they are last and one only help.

Not only last help ;-).
In some situations it is better to use it ride away 8).

Worth reading what published Animal Welfare in 2004: http://www.antrozoologisenteret.no/a...ng_methods.pdf

In addition, worth thinking about water/air collar if one "need" a remote tool.

Also interesting: http://www.ust.is/media/ljosmyndir/d...hockcollar.pdf

Daiva,

I don't want a discussion on electric collars in general.
Different people, different attitudes.
But let me ask you the one or other question about your use of this kind of collar on your dog Geryon.
1. Why was it necessary to use it in the first place, and how old was he?
2.In what exact situations did you use it?
3.How did you prepare you and your dog for this situation?
4.Do you think the use had any impact on the behavior of Geryon and did it change the problems you and your dog (remember, the problem is mostly at the end of the lead) had in a positive way?
5.If you're honest with yourself, is there the possibility of something going the other direction as desired?
6.If yes, has it maybe something to do with the fact that you cannot handle your own dog?
7.Or is it just due to a lack of a proper rank order, which can of course not be "cured" by an electric collar.
If you don't want to answer these questions here, feel free to send me a private message.

Thanks in advance for your help clarifying this questions,
Michael

Still wonder about the answer's :roll:, and I found another one :|.
http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...e=list&id=4100
And he even got P1 ??
Still hope, that someone can answer me 8).
Groette Martine.

Sorry wrong link :oops:, have to find him again :shock:.
Lost it somewhere between mine mouse and the post ;-).

sorry :) i have very hard work :)


2.3.4.5.7. about this you mass speak with me personal trainer :) ;-)
6. i think others :) if you think not like me this is not me problems :) but Yours.


regards :)

I am not Michael, who is away at work for this week, but I think you should be able to explain such things yourself when you use an electric collar or you shouldn´t use it because you are not qualified for it. You use it yourself so you should also be able to explain why by yourself and you should have very good reasons why there is no other way of training. Otherwise it is a case of abuse and extreme psychological violance against the dog no matter if you use it during bonitation or not.
Being thrown on the back and held down is something that is element of social interactions in wolves and dogs. Something I can show you easily in our wolf or dog pack, though it shouldn´t be used in regular terms from unexperienced owners. Being shocked by an electric collar is not and therefor not understandable for the dog within the social context and training is something in a social context.

But anyway this is nothing that should be discussed any longer in a topic about differences in Bonitations. I agree with you on that one point.

Ina

I not know if i must start new topic but is same because me and my friends have two question. Sorry i never see bonitation but my friends see and want to ask because now they see results in belgium. I write it because for me it is too odd.
you write in topic about Cutt because he is P14 because slovak judge measure Cutt with 64 centimetres. For me it is normal and i not believe it can change and for me is not true czech judges give more centimetres. But now i see people write here is right and me any my friends have question to Mirka because i now he made bonitation in belgium with czech judge. In results i see Ice Wolf and dog is P14 because slovak judge measure it with 63,5 centimetres and i see now dog is very good in belgium because czech judge give him 1,5 centimetres more and now he is minimum size. I read many critic of Mirka about small dogs and now i see he and czech judge make dog more big and make P14 dog to P3. I want ask how big is difference between czech ans slovak measure? and when is next bonitation in belgium with same judge because many people write bad thing on cutt - father of my dog of my friend. And i see it is possible to change if breeder come and make new bonitation. But what i not understand are bad words Mirka write about other dogs but same time make bonitation and give P3 for too small dog:roll:

Second question is about czech judge Matu¹incová because she make bonitation in czech and in italia. And me and my friends see she not like italian dogs because she give bad marks for small things and much good marks for czech dogs. It is normal for this judge?
My friends know about bonitation in pavia and very nice dog have bad bonitation code and many bad marks. here you can see three for example
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Alf...kych_vinic.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ien..._Arimminum.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Misha_Braveheart.jpg
two dogs are from italia and one from czech and all very much typical and good looking. For me same and i know breeders here say same. But for czech judge dogs are not very much typical and give dogs worst mark.

and same judge make bonitation in czech and dog like here are perfect
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/10...13-2768622.jpg
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/10...06-4590414.jpg
and for judge Matu¹incová no bad marks. But for me dogs not look like wolfdogs. is not very odd judge evaluate dogs as this. You know this judge? I ask because people say judge give worst mark to italian dogs because it is jealous because italian dog are much more nice as czech? but it is right to judge this way?

This dog has not bonitations, what you show on picture. it was too young puppy for bonitation

And why you write about judge Matusincova? Judge on this action was judge Simackova

This is puppy :shock:

Hi,

I can only give an answer to your first question.
About Ice-Wolf: I know the dog was seriously ill when he was still young and he was always very small and skinny. Since one year, his owner has a second dog and Ice had a break for training. His owner also changed the dog's food and he got really fat. When he started to train him again, the dog didn't loose all the extra weight and he looked bigger and more masculine. His owner wanted to bonitate him again, because the dog really changed a lot. I saw it myself: the dog even looked bigger.
The judge measured him and he appeared to be 65cm... Of course I wasn't standing beside it to check the measurement, but I don't think the judge made him bigger or smaller :twisted:
Another possibility could be that the dog didn't change, but his exact size is let's say 64,2cm. On the first measurement the dog was maybe not so self-confident and he got measured 63,5. The second measument the dog was maybe standing straight on his legs and full of confidence, a bit older and bigger and measured 64,9...

I understand your point about Cutt... He's a nice male with very nice offsprings and it's a pity he has a P14 code because of his height :(

Liesbeth

Yes, 6 months (+ -) old dog is puppy usually.

Lisbeth, what you say confirms the bonitation problem that exsits: the dogs of our friends were sick, underfed, were scared during the bonitation and that's why they didn't reach the minimnum size. By the secod bonitation they have grown, got braver, their bodies have changes etc. and that's why they deserve a better code. People would never say it about the dogs of their "enemies" or competitors. Those were either measured properly and the bonitation results were "lifted" by "dishonest judges" or they do not desereve the bonitation code they have. If the second bonitation code is better than the first one - there definitely must have been some dishonest action....

Don't you guys see this is patethic? If you start questioning bonitation codes given to dogs by competent, reliable, honest judges bonitations will totally lose its value! They will be worth not more than the piece of paper on which the result was printed. There must be a group of trustful judges who cooperate together, set standards and follow procedures and whose judgements will never be undermined or questioned by anybody if the bonitation is to have any sense at all.

The result of the above discussion is such, that I decided not to bonitate my dog. Are you really aiming towards more such personal decisions? If yes - go on arguing....:evil: