Wolfdog.org forum - Elbow Dysplasia

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- - Elbow Dysplasia (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11933)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 234672)

I will answer all posts later - anyway small corection. I see you do not know what are the levels of HD and ED....

HD-A and HD-B are HEALTHY dogs. HD-A mean excellent hips and HD-B "not quite perfect but healthy".

The descriptions by ED are DIFFERENT. ED-0 is for healthy hips. ED-1 is already DISPLATIC dogs with light displasia.

Simply said:

ED-1 = HD-C

(and not like you think ED-1 = HD-B)

I am very impressed about your knowledge of what I know and what I think :lol:

Explanation from the Danish expert who I mentioned earlier is quite different than your statement :
HD B = light dysplatic, but normally with no real health issue.
ED 1 = light dyspaltic, but normally with no real health issue, depending on which illness who caused this result, as ED is a term used for many different illnesses(not only dysplacia like in HD) in the elbow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 234672)

we remove all ILL dogs from the list.

Anyway if you think HD C = ED 1 and ED 1 is an ill dog, why do you allow dogs with HD C to stay on the stud dog list ? :roll:

Greetings Rolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf (Bericht 234688)

Explanation from the Danish expert who I mentioned earlier is quite different than your statement :
HD B = light dysplatic, but normally with no real health issue.
ED 1 = light dyspaltic, but normally with no real health issue

:lol: Please LEAVE this "expert"... Ask better google... :rock_3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 234691)

:lol: Please LEAVE this "expert"... Ask better google... :rock_3

Please tell me your scourse of your claimed sientific work ...and your name, if you are not afraid to stand by your opinions ?

Google is the expert of all experts :roflmao

Greetings Rolf

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf (Bericht 234694)

Google is the expert of all experts :roflmao

No ... but still better than person who helps you and make BASIC faults and have no idea about basic things...
I'm sorry but I have no time to explain you everything starting with "What is HD and ED and what are the scores".... :roll: Even if without it the whole talk is for nothing (because exactly the missing information is the reason why the are so many wholes in your argumentation)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 234708)

I will stand by my opinions and public my scources of sientific work, you have`nt done any of that so far, so please show us some credibility of your statements and show your "face" or stop your useless accusations against my scources of sientific work.

I did not ask you to explain "what is HD and ED scores" I know what this already from an expert who is NAMED, that seems to be more than you are able to do.

Greetings Rolf

when i mas buy new dog, I better buy puppy from HD C one parent but not ED 1. Why? this is explaine in this forum, but I saw, You not wish this understand

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin (Bericht 234745)

when i mas buy new dog, I better buy puppy from HD C one parent but not ED 1. Why? this is explaine in this forum, but I saw, You not wish this understand

Ok, you're right.

Now can someone answer the other question?

I do not understand the sense of comparison between HD and ED. Those Problems are governed by a different gene control, HD a polygenism, ED a dominant gene. Different is the criterion for the choice of stallion for the two problems. The value of a stallion HD C depends on the outcome of the entire litter, the descendants, and halfsiblings and ancestor. HD C stallion with his brother is HD D, his halfsibilings is HD E can not be viewed in the same way that HD C stallion from a litter where all the brothers are HD A, whose parents come from good litters. While all dogs with ED 1 to be considered in the same way.

Maybe, if I quote and paste what is wrote on OFFA they will have no more excuse to say " no it isn't, my vet say or my vet told or I saw it in a pallestry for breeder".

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFFA

There are many factors to consider when evaluating the progress of countries that permit breeding Grade I elbows. There may indeed be reasons to consider using Grade I elbows in breeding programs for the purpose of maintaining a broader gene pool, especially in countries where the breed specific rate of ED is approximately 25% or higher (as appears to be the case in some European countries). One must balance the potential consequences as they pertain both to the entire gene pool, and to elbow disease as a part of the gene pool. With a lower rate of ED in many breeds in the U.S., the genetic pressures to include Grade I ED's in most US breeding programs may not be the same as in other countries. Below are two sets of data which may help provide a basis for making a more informed decision whether to breed a dog affected with Grade I ED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Offa

The OFA’s distinction between normal and abnormal elbows is actually more clearly defined than are the differences between fair and borderline hips. Elbows are diagnosed as dysplastic when evidence of Degenerative Joint Disease (DJD) is present as evidenced by osteophytes or sclerosis. It is not a gradual continuum from normal to abnormal, in which minor differences might be interpreted as normal by one reader and abnormal by another. The degree of DJD present is the determining factor in the grade of dysplasia.
The term “degenerative joint disease” is often misunderstood and misinterpreted. “Degenerative” is defined as some distinct change from a normal state to a diseased state. It does not imply a continuing process in which the disease will progress and worsen continuously over time, and it is incorrect to assume that a dog with Grade I ED will eventually develop Grade II or III ED.
It is also important to understand that DJD is a finding which aids in the diagnosis of elbow dysplasia, but the DJD itself is the secondary result of one or more of three distinct etiologies that make up the generalized description of elbow dysplasia. These are united anconeal process (UAP), fragmented coronoid process (FCP), and osteochondrosis (OCD) which may appear singularly or in combination.

And princially, different of HD that I can avoid completly with correct suplement EVEN IN A DOGS GENETICALLY AFFECTED, in ED it didn't happen.

As I told before and as now you all can read by OFFA, the metod of judge HD is completly different of the metod which judge ED, those ills are different, the part is tooks works different and are different, its simply impossible to even compare the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFFA

have all concluded that the heritability of ED (defined as UAP, FCP, or OCD) is moderate to high. This means that breeding selections can have a significant impact on the rate of ED in a breed.

And again here, we talk about the huge hereditability of this ill.

Who still have doubts, its only took what I wrote before and put togheter with what is wroted here, and i'm sure, will have no more doubts.

As we have at moment few cases of ED problems in the breed, as those dogs mainly don't comes from "rare" lines, not have why preserve ED in breeding spreading the problem in a breed that have a small genetic pool.

So far ED knowledge seems to be new for CzW breeders, as its not tested in some other breeds ( which didn't means they're not affected).
If we took out all dogs without results, the stud dog list will be really small as some dogs are already too old to receive another anesthesie for make this exam (as wolfdogs are not such easy with anesthetics), so, the best way would be put a borderline between the dogs that need to be checked for enter in the database, dogs born in 2007 half/end will have their hips and elbows checked in this year, the ones who born before it probably already had make the check, so, the best will be dogs born in 2008 foward only be accepted in stud list with ED results, and the others remain even without it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf (Bericht 234720)

Here is a link of the veterinary association that works on genetic orthopedic deseases in dogs, luckily it is already in English. http://www.grsk.org/Fluckiger_Scorig.pdf
The definition of B in literature written of some of the inventors of the FCI-Systhem here in Germany is:
Normal hip within the genetic range
In Germany we have B1 and B2, the difference between A2 and B1 is extremly tight and not visible for non-experts.

Ina

Quote:

but normally with no real health issue, depending on which illness who caused this result, as ED is a term used for many different illnesses(not only dysplacia like in HD) in the elbow.

In the same way HD can be diagnosed with some different illnes, but what caused is was the bad formation in the joint, acetabulum or femoral head.
The Displasy is what cause those problems, that will be used as signal of the bad formation.
The word displasy means bad formation, so, resuming, its a bad formation that will make the elbow or the hips work wrong, causing some problems that you will find in the X rays.
There is the problem os the comparation between HD and ED, a HD dog can be displasic without have any kind of degeneration, if he will futurelly show it or not are other 500, but a ED dog will only get positive when its already have the degeneration.