Standard like wolf? Last weekend I was together with 5 wolves. 1 3 year old Carapatian had coat like longhair csw. One wolf 2 year old son of ural - russian - wolf had even more coat.

And what about italian people who go to shows, I know it from the Briards these people make their dogs really nice they wash them before show, they brush them, they comb them and tehy use hairdryers to blow them dry and then they look like collie. But if they were out in the rain, coming inside getting dry, they would look like ordinary csw.

Long hair dogs problems with heat? Of course not, my briard is going on every heat outside like csw. He has no more and no less problems. And Briads are able to run 100 km a day. Briads working on sheeps are doing this easy.

Working dog lines like border collie and briards with shorter coat? Sure, because they are going through everything like mud, water, trees bushes and so on. That is why their coat is shorter. And there is no time to brush and comb them everyday. The show dogs of these breeds are washed, blow dry with hair dryer and combed andbrushed. That is why they have much more longer coat. I know it because my Briard has parents with long couat really long coat but he is in the middle, because he is a working dog runing through fields, woods and so on.

So please keep on earth. It all has a reason why it so.

Christian

Chiedo cortesemente a Massimo o Susanna e Gialluca di tradurre data la mia scarsa dimestichezza con L'inglese:
"Il pelo lungo è abbinato ad una scarsa produzione di sottopelo e + lungo il pelo e meno sottopelo viene prodotto , rendendo il cane meno adatto ai rigidi inverni e afose estate.
Non c'è nulla di scientifico nel affermare che il pelo lungo è abbinato al carattere + o meno buono,le uniche ricerche fatte su carattere /pelo sono sul colore dove alcuni ricercatori hanno provato che il carattere della docilita' e abbinato al pelo nocciola .

Do you mean one coat like at this dog of the photo who appear in this topic?
If yes, I think, you have see a hybrid, not a pure wolf, a pure wolf will never have one coat like this ( son of miky), nor european wolf, nor north american wolf.
Another thing, they have a huge difference betwen the summer coat and the winter coat, this difference seems not happen with some long haired wolfdogs.

He's asking someone to translate, so (someone has to pay my translator bill ;) ):

I have a question to pose to the forum's so called experts:
it seems the long coat is connected to some genetic reason.
I ask those of you reading if they have any other experience with really long coats.
I saw personally Agar Reolup and some of the long haired dogs we are speaking about and forgive me monika but to my eyes there is nothing in common, Agar's fur is really dense but these ones are long, so long they make the fluff in the ears.
I was wondering if anyone knows any other dog with such fur and see if on the pedigree we can find something in common.
Miky has made many litters but the only ones (to my experience of course) with long fur come from Fendy.
There must be a genetic reason coming from this.
maybe it's not from miky but from Fendy or from a combination of the two.
this Site should NOT be used just to critisize and attack each other continuously (as unfortunately is being done...) but to help us KNOW BETTER and maybe IMPROVE our breed.
Can anybody give me some info about past or present dogs with very long fur??
I think it's a very interesting genetic issue.
massimo

Yes, Massimo, I can. Maybe I should not, because the father of the puppies is from my kennel, but I believe the reason of "longhair" on these dogs is the strong inbreeding, that was done by the breeder. Unfortunatelly, she made TWO !! litters with strong inbreeding (first time she said it was accident, second time she said she liked the long-haired dogs..). No use of me, Jesus or even Sona Bognarova talking to her..
Anyways, here are some long-haired dogs from the first litter:

See here:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Vya...es_de_lEst.jpg
dogs card in WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d6299.html

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Van...es_de_lEst.jpg
dogs card in WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d6297.html

and second litter
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ath...es_de_lEst.jpg
dogs card in WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d7061.html

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ant...es_de_lEst.jpg
dogs card in WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d7058.html

When you will look through all the pups from the same litters, you will see that only two or three from the litter came out with long hair, the others seem to be normal. Also with different female there are apparently no long haired pups in the litter.

I believe though, that the chance for long hair must come somewhere from the line of Krivoklatsky Atos. I had once at home as a foster dog (before we found him new home) male Eros Krivoklatsky Atos, who had very dense and rather long coat -
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/d...sky_Atos/4.jpg
It is nothing when you compare it to the photos above, but as Liesbeth mentioned, maybe if you put two dogs together (as in the case of strong inbreeding) it might bring out really long haired pups. I find it rather scary.

Some more scary dogs, this time Italian.

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Dru...o_del_Lupo.jpg
card of the dog on WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7098

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Fen...o_del_Lupo.jpg
card of the dog on WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/8014

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Fio...o_del_Lupo.jpg
card of the dog on WD - http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/8016

Thanks Mirka!
Nice that you are such a responsible and honest breeder that you share this info :D

I think a lot of breeders would not give this info when the father of these puppy’s was coming from their kennel (or would blame the mother of the puppy’s for this)

For the wellbeing of the breed we all can learn of breeders like you :D

Well, I blame the breeder. :roll: I´ve breed nice and healthy pups, and nobody in Cira´s family, as far as I knew, was long-haired dog. Neither in the family of Jerry Lee z Molu Es.

Also the father of these ugly long-haired dogs gives normal pups with different female. His brothers give normal pups too. So it is really a matter of inbreeding, that brought this out.

Nobody in his right mind would do such strong inbreeding, especially not twice :roll: And especially not after seeing the results.. grr!

Simple Massimo not F x M, bearers of the recessivo gene of the long coat, much simple one .

Thanks Andre

I have see fotos of some dogs were the fater is Jerry Lee Z Molu Es that show long hair.
In the photo Ciro not seems have a short coat, and have already make long haired dogs.
Bora have some offsprings with normal coat with others male, I can say that she pass the darker color, but not long coat .

The inbreeding was made in Bora, but who have strong genetic for long coat is Ciro and Jerry lee, Elza have Ciro, Ares have Jerry lee, so, the two dogs have genes for long coat, the litter have born with long coat.
If not deceif-me, the breeder have say-me that others offsprings from Ares with others females have show long coat in the males, but not in females, too as have show very strong bones, independant of the female.

I agree with Liesbeth, that in time the long hair can become a huge problem in the breed

But I agree also with Monika, on this moment long hair is an exterior problem. And there are also more major health problems in this breed. :(

In the passed I was involved in another breed where everybody was very worried about the colours and fur condition. Many years later , most of the dogs did have very good colours and good fur, but…. huge health problems did appear all over in the breed..

So don’t only focus on the long hair in the CsW breed!!

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/HIndiana_Arimminum.jpg
Armminum H'Indiana

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Ron_shot_z_Molu_es.jpg
Ron Shot Z Molu Es

the gene of the long coat is recessevo, because it is expressed not only must be carried from the 2 parents from one (FENOTIPO=genotipo).

Sure the long coat is not great problem + of the race but can' to avoid itself. To mistake is human to perseverare is diabolic

??????????

That's right, long coat isn't one big problem, is recesive and can be controled easy, but the problem will start if someone add to select long coated dogs, that's will start to make the breed lost his original caracterist, will change the original standard, in one little breed as the CzW is, with few blood lines, the problem can be turn really big, now is only few dogs that need to be used with carefull in the reproduction because of th elong coat, but if the number of long coated dogs, with gene for long coat up too much, the problem will be maded.
Have some more important questions, but why not talk about this one time?
I imagine that have some people who have and breed long coat dogs because find more beautifull, is a personal taste, can be too that prefer long coated dogs because it call more attention in show than one normal coated dog, but not know that this is a problem for the standard, and futurelly can be a problem for the breed. :wink:

Hello,

I must admit that I'm new in the world of wolfdogs, but I'm very interested in the breed and especially in the genetics of dogs. I'm a student and I learn a lot about everything that has to do with genetics of humans and animals. I don't know everything (far from that), but I find the subject interesting. It is really not so, that it is easy to make sure that you don't breed puppies with long hair. It is not because it is a recessive gene, that it is not dangerous. (Recessive means that a puppy has to receive one gene for long hair from his mother and one gene for long hair from his father => than the pup will have long hair. When he gets only one gene for long hair, the pup will have a normal coat, but he carries the gene for long hair now, and he can give it to one of his own offsprings. Normal coat is dominant over long hair. For the people who didn't understand the word 'recessive' that is used a few times.).
I noticed a time ago that there were few wolfdogs with longer hair, and I started to check the bloodlines. I also found the litter of Cira and Jerry Lee suspicious, because most of the pups have (for so far you can see it on photos!) a nice coat. not long, but full and -I can't explain this in English :mrgreen: - So I started to check the lines behind those dogs to. But I had to stop with it, because there's something I cannot explain... I think that there must be another factor working together with the gene of long hair, that makes that a pup has the really fluffy coat (really long hair, with no good undercoat => so not good for the weather etc.) That must be the reason why you only get (in this line) the really fluffy coats when you have strong inbreeding. Because of the inbreeding, you make sure that the gene for long hair is given to the pups AND the other genes that are necesary to make the gene for long hair work. But we I think we can conclude that Cira and Jerry Lee are carriers of the gene for long hair, but not (both) of the genes that make the long hair work. (Difficult to explain in English). But maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to make a list of the lines that have given long hair. Maybe we can make even a list of the dogs who are carriers of the long-hair gene. We certainly don't have to exclude these dogs from breeding, but when we do this, we can make sure that we don't make 'dangerous' combinations. But frankly, I think that almost 70% of all wolfdogs is carrier of the gene for long hair. But that's not a huge problem, as long as you don't have strong inbreeding (bigger chance that the combination of genes that makes long hair, is given to the offsprings). Maybe I can ask a Prof to think about the subject. Maybe he knows how this works exactly.

Another thing I wanted to say... Does someone know if they used german shephards with longer coat or carriers of long hair? Or does it come from the wolf? I know the breed since one year, so I don't know very much about it. I only found photos of a wolves and shephards with normal coat that have been used, but the database is not complete, so... Does someone knows more about it?

Maybe we can discuss other (major) (health) issues also...
Maybe we must try to make an arrangement with breeders of all countries and work 'together'.
It's nobody's fault that the gene of long hair is somewhere in the breed!

Greetings,

Liesbeth