The agouti gene would control where the pigments are disposited, the dilution one would transform black to blue (not black to red/liver) ; so here what we see is different, it's the red/liver from bb.

For Saarloos pictures, here are the brown Saarloos I have in the DB SWD Forest-Brown, click on the dog name, then on the next page on "Pictures of this dog", you will see picture of the dog if any found (bad request msg otherwise).

Yes elf, but is it the same gene? Is it the same mutation? If yes, why is it not offered for huskies/malamutes?

Saschia,
I found czech website about testing, for B locus: http://www.genomia.cz/cz/test/locus-b-dog/

I wrote e-mail to Vetgen about testing husky malamut and canis lupus lupus.

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/site...RUBRIQUE=31468


After seeing the pictures of these puppies, and having used the ascendants of these dogs I am ready to do the necessary tests on my marriage in order to know if Saarloos were used to make these lines.
And as you stop taking us for idiots.

Nadia CLEMENT
Elevage des plaines de l'Est

Hmm, to my knowledge it's the same TYRP1, you know special breed cases always exist but I guess we can safely consider this valid for our breed.

Hi every One!

My Nickname is Jet, and I m Glad to meet you. After all, exchange every information about our lovely breed is my hobby, since a few month.

I m the owner of Fitz Chevalerie des Plaines de l'Est, a young CSV (10 month : Robin Crying Wolf x Asta Sokoli Oko) who have as Grand Father Galiba Crying Wolf. He is born at Indianous Kernel ('Les Plaines de l'Est' See th post above).

She is a great breeder, and she gave me a wonderfull Puppy. In France, You Know, we have a lot of CSV which are coming from east lines. Crying Wolf is one of the famoust, not the only, yes! uhh? :)

Now it is sure in France, and Wolfdog Website Admin is agreed with that, ADN proof is showing us that Sibir Crying Wolf x Thalia Crying Wolf is giving us wonderfull puppies, but with a very very Saarlos look like.

The purpose is now to understand why... Nothing matter with our Wolfdog, they are beautifull, we love them. It is just to understand.

It seems that the only way is to analyse Galiba's ADN. I don't know if this wonderfull dog is still alive, Where he live... But Rambo, Rubin, Robin, Sibir, Volos, ... have their puppies here in France, and some of them have already got a lot of puppies too (and so on...).

Do you understand? We need your help to know the truth...

Sorry about my English, I m from Bordeaux, better speaking in french about wine than CSV in englih! :)

And never forget, these dogs are our best friends, we love them! :)

Here is, in french, the begining :

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/site...RUBRIQUE=31468

And Warning, these informations are given by a french Breeder (MLS), who is playing the true way. Never forget that it is the most difficult way for a breeder. She'is the only in France to show reality. Thank's for her.

I hope nobody here attack Lorry.....

I hope too.
But in France, across other forums, things are difficult.

In fact, I don't know her. I Just know she is in the right way. But she is just a french breeder, time is to listen the olders one, from all country.

I get answer from vetgen. They can test any breed of dog and wolf.

I would consider it valid for our breed because i've seen such mutation occur in very inbreeded pure european wolves here, but the inbreeding was so high that together with the color mutation we got other weird mutations as well, better saying, deformations, like a wolf with the one paw positioned at the side of the metatarses instead of the right place.
The mate was not such high inbreeding and the problem of these dogs are not only the color, but the tipicity, then is better we forget about a nice thing as an simple color mutation and get real that there happened an mixage which we had no idea about and maybe nor even the breeder.

Looking right now, I dont think it came by Galiba, but by Mona.
Im not telling here that Mona is not pure, but that maybe all the pups of one litter does not belong to the same father, in this case im not thinking about the possibilitie of cheating but remembering that the same litter can have 2 or more fathers depending on the ovulation of the female and when the male covered, also that we all know that wolfdogs are scape artists, much more when you have crazy males and a female in heat.

There are two different types of pigmentation; eumelanin (black/--> blue or brown) and pheomelanin (red/cream). The gene (bb) that causes black pigmentation to turn into brown (liver), only affects eumelanin. So this basically means that whatever the colour of the dog is, all the normally black areas in it's skin & coat are brown. So if the dog would normally be agouti ("wolf grey"), with genotype bb it will end up looking like the forrest brown Saarloos. Or if a dog would normally be solid black like Labrador, with genotype bb it will turn into solid brown.

Here are two sites that explain it all more spesificly:
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net...cs/pigment.htm
and
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/liver.htm

Eumelanin affects skin aswell as hair, but pheomelanin only affects hair.
Some exceptionally reddish wolves do exist, but they always have black skin pigmentation (nose, lips, nails etc), that shows it is only more "pheomelanistic" individual than usual. Here are a couple of pics by photographer Lassi Rautiainen. They are wild Finnish wolves. Wolves of this color are found more frequently in eastern Finland and in Russia.
As you can see, they still have black pigmentation and black hair tips allthough their coat is overall more pheomelanistic.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...owwolfjump.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...owwolf-4-1.jpg

But whenever a canine has also brown skin pigmentation, it must be genotyped bb.

German Shepherds have brown/liver (bb), allthough it is disqualifying trait due to the standard aswell as white (ee) and blue (dd).
http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html
It is possible for all breeds that are derived from GSD, to carry these genes.
But like someone allready said, it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning.
So it is more realistic to think that it derives from alot more recent heritage; propably from last decades mixing with Saarloos.

Originally posted by Jennin Lauma :

"It is possible for all breeds that are derived from GSD, to carry these genes.
But like someone allready said, it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning.
So it is more realistic to think that it derives from a lot more recent heritage; propably from last decades mixing with Saarloos."

(Hmmm..."last decades ??" - Yeah may be - but may be more probably in some of last one or two generations before...! )

But very good informations ! The whole posting is very interesting especially also what was told about "reddish" ( pheomelanistic ) wild wolves.

It´s quite probably that this kind of colour / pigmentation in nature is caused by inbreed in small population of wolves- like in Finland.

The pictures are great also ! I never saw photos of pheomelanistic wolves, ( and in comparison to normal coloured ones !) ...very well done !:thumbs

Originally posted by Nebulosa:
"...but that maybe all the pups of one litter does not belong to the same father, in this case im not thinking about the possibilitie of cheating but remembering that the same litter can have 2 or more fathers depending on the ovulation of the female and when the male covered, also that we all know that wolfdogs are scape artists, much more when you have crazy males and a female in heat."

That is completely true also.

Best greetings, Silvester

The wolves pictures are interesting but as said this is very different, those wolves are not bb, whereas the red puppies (not a single but 3) the breeder had are bb (more pictures at the bottom MLS) , CSV is told to be BB so this gives that Thalia and Sibir are mixes.

OK, I am reading now the original papewr on the TYRP1 mutations causing bb phenotype, so more to come, but from what I understood untill now, they are loss-of-function kind of mutations, which actually can occur de novo, and with Fallko Kollarov dvor being common ancestor of both Thalia and Sibir, if he gained a new loss-of-function mutation of TYRP1, then it could show exactly like it happened here. Which doesn't mean it cannot be due to inmixing of Saarloos, but, if we are lucky, it can be looked into, by finding out what allele is present in the red pups, and compare it to allelle present in forrest/brown Saarloos wolfdogs.

Anyway, off to look at the paper (have access here at work).

Hello, I am sorry to think this, all this extremely interesting, but you is tried to find an explanation scientific whereas the answer is very simple, like says it Indiananous, do not take to us for idiots, there was a contribution of Saarloos, quite simply, maintaining the only question is, which is amused to rot our so beautiful race in this way!!!
tomorrow I produce a CSW harlequin, you will find me an explanation??? let us be serious!!!! :roll:

martiou, I am not taking this lightly or taking you for idiots. But, while Thalia and Sibir are DNA-proved to be the parents of the red pups, than it follows that their parents are in question, and that is already an acusation of an individual breeder. The question is how to prove or disprove it, and that is hard... As I suggested, DNA typing of siblings and half-siblings, as well as Galiba, might show the level of relatedness and answer some questions. Meanwhile, looking into the allelle causing the color might or might not, clear it up a bit.

If it would be shown that both Sibir and Thalia are mixes and not pure CSW, than it of course would be a big scandal. Either way, red color is not accepted by CSW standard, so even if the two parents were proved to be pure CSW, their carrying the trait for red should be noted and kept in ming during breeding, and the red pups should not be used for breeding at all...

As I already said in my posting before this morning , I think it is VERY likely that martiou07 is right with his posting !

Because "...it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning." ( What Jennin Lauma told before.)

(Ok, it´s not 100 % sure that crossing with Saarloos is the reason - but close to this ! And much more likely than a spontanous mutation...or caused by inbreeding, like supposed by Saschia.)